Throwing Knives - What would you do?

I just returned from a Parent Son Overnighter at our local Council camp. My pack shared one of the camp sites with a few other families we didn't know. While we were relaxing after the programs were over we noticed a parent and his children throwing knives into a tree stump. The boy was wearing a Tiger Cub hat and the girl looked to be his younger sister. They were using 8 inch long throwing knives.

What would you do?

(I'll post my own answer tomorrow.)

HMM depends upon the role you are playing. I usually very nicely ask if they know that throwing knives are not allowed with Cubs, I think Boy Scouts are under proper supervision and on a range just like Tomahawks, and since this campsite has lots of folks running about, would they mind stopping since you would hate to have to send anyone to the hospital.

Or you can contact someone in charge.

I'd point that out to an outing leader.

Trying to intervene if you aren't an event leader would like lead to a dispute. Someone committed to knife throwing isn't likely to be easily discouraged, I would suppose.

Another method might be to invite the parent and boys to a fun activity you are doing.

Families used to doing more adventurous activities themselves probably aren't going to be anxious to stop doing those in Cub Scouts. Persuading them to conform to Scout rules without them quitting might take more tact than many would have.

They might be families (Dads, I mean) that would be really valuable in Cub Packs or Troops. We NEED that kind of enthusiasm!

"What would you do?"

Take away their Tote 'n Chips until they could demonstrate all twenty-four (24) "feats" of the traditional way to play with a knife: "Mumble the Peg:"

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/games/beard/mumbly_peg.htm

Make them demonstrate that axes are the proper tools to throw:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/axe/axe_throwing.htm

Tomahawks too:

http://inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/beard/throw_tomahawk.htm

That night around the campfire, they would lose their Firem 'n Chits until they lose a game of "Jack's Alive!"

http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/games/beard/jacks_alive.htm

I hope that helps!

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

I would tell them they are conducting an unauthorized and (really stress) a very dangerous activity and that it must stop immediately!

I would let them know that they can stop right now and we let it go or the CD and Ranger will be notified immediately. You don't have to scream at the parent or scoutrs, just let them know that they are wrong, explain why, and tell them firmly that "but we are carefull" doesn't apply. Rules are rules are rules for a very good reason even if he doesn't understand.

Again, you don't have to be mean or a jerk about it, but you need to be firm.

In this case, your leadership position( or lack of) means nothing. Knowing the rules, being aware of a dangerous situation, and doing absolutely nothing is pretty much akin to encouraging it.

I have acted in a situation that was very similar ( parents and scouts from another unit throwing machete at trees not even 15 feet away from where scouts were running and playing.

You do not have to be CD, DD, Ranger or even a CM/SM.

THis is a danger to more than just the scouts participating! This is a danger to EVERYBODY!

Worst thing that will happen is somebody gets mad.

And honestly, I'm not so sure a parent who will allow children that little would be a great resource in scouting. Would that same judgement pop up again when teaching older boys how to handle knives?

"Well these boys are older, more experienced and and just having a bit of fun. What's the harm? "

At our pack campouts the opening ceremony includes a refresher on "The Rules". One of the most important rules is 'No throwing rocks or sticks'. A throwing knife can certainly be a sub-category of rocks and sticks, and prohibited under that rule.

A first grader throwing knives? With familial participation? That's so over the top that I'm having a hard time reacting to it.

That's almost grounds for calling DFACS... And I'm no nanny-stater.

Yah, hmmmm...

Let's all take a step back from the moral indignation and outrage cliff.

I'm imagining a dad off in a corner with a lad throwing knives under supervision into a nearby tree or stump. Not a dedicated "range", but also nobody runnin' around nearby.

First, let's straighten out the "rules". Knife throwing is not an "unauthorized activity", eh? Those are the things on the G2SS list like not shootin' each other with squirtguns. Knife throwing is just fine at the Boy Scout level, but G2SS advises that it's not an approved activity for Cub Scouting.

Of course in this case it's not being run as a cub scout activity by the camp or by the pack, it's just somethin' a dad is doin' with his son off in a corner. There is a difference. Most of us would agree that it's not age appropriate for most boys that age, but then I learned to shoot .22s when I wasn't much older than that and did just fine. Some of this stuff depends on the family and the local norms.

In any event, it does not even come remotely close to somethin' you'd call Child Services about, eh? That's just absurd. Yeh call Child Services about things where you think the government should come with guns and take people's children away from them by force.

So, now that we've walked back from the cliff, what's appropriate? Well, a leader might gently pull dad aside and say that because the BSA doesn't recommend knife throwing for most boys this age, we'd prefer if yeh didn't do it on campouts until Boy Scouting. Just because not every lad has the training yours does, and if they see it, they'll start tryin' it on their own without supervision and such, and I'm sure yeh wouldn't want that. A fellow who knows the dad better might be recruited to say "Come on, George. Tommy's still too young for that stuff. Give it a few years."

Beavah

DING! Correct answer Beav!

Family Services? Really? Unless the dad was throwing the knives AT the kid....

Wouldn't it be funny if the kid turns out to be the three-time nation champion knife thrower for his weight class?

(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

Thank you for your responses (yes, even to Kudu - comic relief is always welcomed.)

I ended up handling it by greeting the dad and saying that I wish I had my Guide to Safe Scouting book with me so I could show him that Cub Scouts don't throw knives. His response was "But these are throwing knives." (Exact quote.) I was a bit stunned. All I could do was reiterate that Cub Scouts don't throw knives but Boys Scouts are allowed to. Then I asked him to please check the G2SS book when he got home and I finished up by saying that ultimately it was up to him.

For a little more situational information the tree stump was close to the middle of the camp site where all of the kids had been playing. Our Pack had pulled our boys back in to get ready for dinner so no one was running around at the moment.

Fortunately the throwing stopped and no harm was done.

I don't think Kudu was meant to be comic relief as much as it was a reminder of how much we have lost over the years due to fear of legal litigation. I remember playing mumble de peg and I survived with all fingers and toes intact. I have carried an illegal jackknife in my pocket ever since I received my first one while I was in Cub Scouts aged 7 years old. I received my first .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. Was I lucky or did my parents teach me how to use them appropriately first. I am now 61 years old, never shot myself or anyone else, and with all the whittling I have done over the years I have a few knicks in my fingers. The worst cuts were due to knives in the kitchen.

Do I own a throwing knife? Sure, all boys should have one. Same for sheath knife and belt axe. Not much use for a throwing knife in camp, but the others I use all the time.

Had there been a place for this father and his kid to go to safely throw knives, none of this discussion would have been necessary. The father should have roped off an area away from the camp and he and his kids could have had fun and everyone would have been safe.

Nowadays it seems that the only real fun is that which you can read in a book. That's really too bad for our kids.

Stosh

It can be a shock for active/outdoor families just how restrictive scouting is on some stuff...as evidenced also by the discussion in the "paintball" topic. We took our Wolf den canoeing a few years ago before I found out in the G2SS that it was verboten...whoops.

Half the boys in our Webelos den (4th grade) have already gone paintballing.

My son cannot shoot a BB gun in Cub Scouts unless he is at a duly authorized council facility...but he bagged a turkey two weekends ago with a 20-gauge shotgun.

But I would not let them throw knives...until they were equipped with proper throwing knives of course.

Is the program too tame, or does it struggle with trying to be all things to all boys, many of whom have no experience with the outdoors?(This message has been edited by brewmeister)

Yeah, my over-protective dad didn't let me take the semi-automatic 12-gauge out hunting until I was 16. At age 12 I had to settle for the single-shot .410 if I wanted to bird hunt.

Our city had a zoo with animals, and the city took it out and was going to replace it. Then they announced the monkeys, etc. would be replaced with "native" animals. Keep it in mind that this place is next to a huge swamp at the foot of wooded forest. Heck half the animals they talked about were right across the street. Then they couldn't afford the animals so they put in different eco areas, i.e. swamp, forest, etc. Duh. Now that didn't pan out so they have worked an agreement with the local library to have nature books available to the kids. So we went from a zoo to a library extension in 7 years time at great taxpayer expense. Go figure. If they didn't charge admission I might go see what kind of joke it is. Until then, I'll spend my time in the forest and swamp where I can see real animals and birds.

There is no adventure left our kids can have because adventure equals unsafe.

Stosh

Interesting to find so much tolerance for an activity that I regard as so dangerous.

I've had a little bit of training throwing knives, and never got good at it. When we practiced, the chief skill needed was to be quick enough to avoid the rebound of a poorly thrown knife. (The weigh forward designs weren't as dangerous as the more slender styles sold in sets for penetration and concealment. Those blades were springy as heck and always came back if you didn't stick them!)

But the OP was about a first grade boy, 6, and his younger sister throwing 8 inch knives at a tree stump, which I presumed means into the vertical side of a round tree. (As opposed to the end grain of a cross cut log.)

So, an organization that won't teach boys to open a pocketknife and whittle a stick until he is 8; forbids paintball; forbids lasertag because a boys might learn to think about shooting another person; discourages sheath knives; won't allow you to walk through camp with an exposed blade in your hand....

Nevermind. If you don't seriously question the judgement of a parent throwing knives with his six year old kids, I'm not going to be able to convince you that a sharp blade spinning eratically through the air near children is bad idea.

Beavah<

Thank goodness you stepped in! We were about to form a lynch mob if you hadn't!

Okay, let go over something you said:

"First, let's straighten out the "rules". Knife throwing is not an "unauthorized activity", eh? Those are the things on the G2SS list like not shootin' each other with squirtguns. Knife throwing is just fine at the Boy Scout level, but G2SS advises that it's not an approved activity for Cub Scouting. "

Okay, not approved is the same thing as unauthorized. If G2SS say you are not aaproved to do it, then it is basically banned, outlawed, against the rules, etc...

Call it what you want. Toe may toe - tah mah toe. Still the same thing

And here's the thing....if a CUB scout sees another CUB scout doing something that they think is really cool, pretty soon, you have a bunch of CUB scouts doing it.

And when you have a bunch of scouts suddenly throwing sticks, kives, tent stakes or whatever else they can get ahold of..they don't just suddenly think to themselves : "Hey, this might be dangerous!"

NOpe, it take a handfull of adults quite a bit of trime to get it to sink in.

And just as soon as you say: "Hey, you cannot do that!" They will all chime in with : But " X " is doing it!"

And just as soon as you turn you head, they try to get in "just one more throw" ...which most of the time becomes "just one more ..again".

Now, I know you are itching to start that same little line you like about the rules not be laws and how we are all confused, buit you know what, we aren't confused. We know they are not laws, but they are rules, Rules you agreed to follow.

And heres another thing: This dad might even be an certified super knive expert supreme class instructor. His son might be the same. But last time I checked, G2SS doesn't have that disclaimer star saying" * Rule does not aply to people who really do know what they are voing"

Same reason a NRA certified / professional active duty Marine sniper/championship marksmanship contest winning person cannot just take even a bb gun and shoot it in the middle of camp.

Rules are for everybody.

This guy wasn't in a corner, it wasn't boy scouts, the Tiger isn't old enough ( per BSA ) to even earn a whittling chip. Thge issue at stake - besides other scouts deciding to take up this activity is that any other scout at the camp, could suddenly run up and get in the path of the knife. Or run up and decie to throw one he picked up from his own campsite and end up throwing dad's fillet knife at the Tiger scout or his sister.

THis is not about moral indignation and outrage. This is about keeping the campsite safe for everybody and ensuring that everybody follow the rules.

As far as Child protective services..yeah, I agree there. I wouldn't call them either.

And like others have said. my son really hated the Red Ryder BB guns at the bb gun range. You can actually see the bb's as they travel from the barrel to the target.

But that was the most powerful thing he was allowed to shoot. When we got home, we' usually get out his .22 rifle or his .410 and shot it some.

But what we do at home is not bound by G2SS and there is also not a whole bunch of scouts running around our yard either.

When in Rome, do like the Romans, but you better follow the Roman law.

I've been re-reading Ender's Game, the Shadow series, and Ender in Exile, in anticipation of the film's November 2013 release:

http://endersgameblog.tumblr.com/

If first-graders can be drafted for Battle School, certainly they can master two dozen feats of Mumble Peg!

The next edition of Guide to Safe Scouting will include a prohibition against Boy Scouts viewing the movie, because of the graphic scenes of laser tag in zero-gravity.

Yours at 300 feet,

Kudu

http://kudu.net