unifirm neatness

Here's a very good question for eveyone.......

With 13 boys in the troop, should everyone's uniform match???? What I mean with "match" is all patches in the same location. I have noticed in my oldest son troop, out of 13 boys there is only 1 scout who has his patches in the correct location.

My oldest became the troops scribe right before summer camp last year; I placed his scribe patch on his right sleeve. He came home from camp and told me everyone told him I messed up and it belongs on his left sleeve and that only leadership patches belong on the left sleeve. I should him the location chart and agreed with me that I was right.

Now his new PL is telling him he has to move it or be forced to resign that position. I mentioned this to the SM and got nowhere; I went to the troop's committee chairperson and told him. He did some checking and told me I was correct with the location.

I remember from when I was in the scouts, we had uniform inspection about every 3 months, and if your uniform was found to be improper, you had to fix it. I've looked at all the other boys uniforms in the troop and everybody else's patches just seemed to be placed where ever they want to set them. Some of the boys uniforms are all stained and falling apart. I know these unifirms aren't cheap but show some respect for your troop.

I'm a Webelos Den Leader, and we did a sit down with all the parents and walked them through the patch placement. I may only have 4 webelos but at least when they are standing in line, their uniforms all match.

Can somebody give me some insight on how to go about discussing this with the SM. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Position patches (Scribe, SPL, PL, etc) belong on the wearer's LEFT sleeve below and touching the unit numerals. If in doubt, look at the inside cover of the Scout Handbook.

I'm also a firm believer that every scout should be able to sew on his own patches. If that's the case, I'm willing to overlook minor variations in neatness.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

fastbow

Hi and welcome to the forums.

The state of the uniforms in the troop didn't happen over night.

Fixing the problem isn't going to happen overnight.

Have to say if I were the SM and I found out that someone was kinda going over my head and talking to the Committee Chair about something that had just been mentioned to me? I might be a little bit put out!!

That of course might just be me being a little over sensitive!!

While of course doing something right is a good thing. Take care that you are not in some way setting your son up as some kind of "Goody Two Shoes". No older Scout especially a PL wants to hear a little fellow who harps on about his Dad is right all the time!!

If you are not involved in the Troop??

At this time I think I'd be happy just sending my son to Scouts dressed as neatly and correctly as I could.

If this is causing a problem?

Maybe there is some other problem?

I really have a bit of a hard time seeing that a PL??? Would tell another Scout he had to resign a POR all because of the placement of a patch.

If a PL is really doing this kind of thing? Uniforming isn't the big problem in the Troop!! It's much more than that!!

You might want to send the SM an e-mail, telling him what has been said to your son in the e-mail include the link

http://www.scouting.org/media/insigniaguide/06C.aspx

What happens next is up to he SM.

Sometimes the reason why a Scout has a uniform that is stained and falling apart, is because it has been well used!!

As Scouter's we can do our best to provide a program that inspires Scouts to want to look their best and be proud of the uniform.

But at the end of the day most kids are like the one I have been feeding for 19 years.

He has relied on us his parents to buy or replace his uniform.

When he comes home from a uniformed event, his uniform goes into that strange land known only to her Her Who Must Be Obeyed -The Laundry Room!!

Sure some of us can harp on about how a Scout should do his own laundry and be a super self-sufficient, self-reliant master of everything.

But the truth of the matter is that the most common yell before a Troop meeting is "Mom, where's my uniform?"

Things did change for OJ once he got really involved in the OA at the Section level. I think I even seen him one day trying to iron a Scout shirt and he managed to wangle a wool blend uniform out of me -At great expense to ME!!

Back when I was a SM, I found the best thing that happened to improve the Troop uniforming was a big event where there was a lot of emphasis placed on uniform and looking good.

We also had a inter-patrol "Patrol of the month" competition and points were given for each Scout in the Patrol being neat, tidy and in correct uniform. The winning Patrol got to wear a gold necker for the following month and the Patrol who won th most months had their Patrol name added to the Patrol of the year plaque, with the Scouts name as well.

While maybe I just might have helped this idea along?? The decision to go with it and what points were given for did come from the PLC.

Back when I was a young Scout we had to have a pair of polished shoes for Troop meetings.

I never liked to polish shoes. So I would steal my brothers shoes (He spent one night a week at home polishing his shoes -Boy did he need to get a life!!)He is four years older than I am.

When he found out I'd borrowed his shoes, he would beat the heck out of me!!

Talk about brotherly love!!

Eamonn.

" I went to the troops committe chairperson and told him. He did some checking and told me I was correct with the location."

Unless there's a typo someplace, your CC is wrong. Position patches should be on the LEFT sleeve.

Uniforms, as much as possible, should be uniform. It's not rocket science. The chart is in the book. It is online. The problem is that parents "don't have time" and don't think that it's important and the Scouts don't care.

Have uniform inspections once a month. Make them fun and avoid embarassment. The focus should be on neatness of appearance and obvious patch mis-placement. Make gentle reminders and set an example.

As someone mentioned earlier, it will not be corrected overnight. No one likes to mess with patches after they have spent hours sewing them on.

Also, mis-placement of patches is not a major issue to some parents including parents that strongly support the BSA program. So don't expect those patches to be moved anytime soon, unless YOU or the Scout himself is willing fix them rather than waiting on "Mommy" to do it.

We have 3 patrols in the troop. They are identified by name AND by NUMBER. Obviously the competition is such that being #1 has it's benefits. While being #1 and staying #1 is a constant concern. Patrols #2 and #3 are always seeking out ways to grab the top spot. With the competition tight, many times the weekly judging can come down to looking closely at the little details and moving up in position with pefect uniforming is always a strong possibility. If the boys are aware of the details, the generalities often find themselves being done well also. Being observant and keeping a keen eye out for each other is also an excellent leadership skill that gets developed in the process. If everyone "looks" perfect, a small ruler will often set one patrol apart from another.

Stosh

scoutldr and gold winger, not to say your wrong but proven facts are this.....leadership patches such as SM,ASM,JSM,JASM,PL,APL all belong on the LEFT sleeve. Job patches such as Bugelar,Scribe,Quartermaster,Historian,Chaplin etc.....these are not leadership positions and belong on Right sleeve. Only leadership positions belong on the LEFT sleeve.

We had COH lastnight and I confirmed this with a KAC member. The SC is aware of the boys unknowingly mess up and is having the removed and placed in proper position.

I researched this for well over a month before placing my sons scribe patch on the right sleeve, if you really look at the inside back cover of the BS handbook, that patch is the ending of the Historian position and it is on the LEFT sleeve right below the Patrol patch and the American flag, if you want to look further, check out Badge Master or even look it up online and you'll see what goes where.

Eamonn, The older kids in this troop aren't what you would call "good role models" for younger scouts. The PL is 1 sided and says things to the younger scouts, that yes are very inappropriate. I told the SM about what was said and an appology was issued and the situation has never come up again.

I agree to letting the boys do their own uniforms to some extent, but having help from others in the troop or even the SM could lend a hand to help these boy.

I am am on the committee for the troop and this has come up numerous times and the troops uniforms being wrong or messy....it goes in 1 ear and out the other. I guess this should be 1 of those issues that just dies, but I'll be damned if I will stand back and let my boys uniforms become a mess and a disrespectful to the BSA.(This message has been edited by fastbow)

"..leadership patches such as SM,ASM,JSM,JASM,PL,APL all belong on the LEFT sleeve. Job patches such as etc.....these are not leadership positions and belong on Right sleeve. Only leadership positions belong on the LEFT sleeve."

Where on Earth do you get this?

If you poke your nose into the Insignia Guide, you'll see that for EVERY position, including Bugelar,Scribe,Quartermaster,Historian and Chaplin the indicated position is the LEFT SLEEVE in Position 3. The only similar patch that goes on the right sleeve is the "Musician" patch.

"that patch is the ending of the Historian position and it is on the LEFT sleeve right below the Patrol patch and the American flag,"

No, in the back of the book, it shows SPL on the LEFT SLEEVE under the Troop number. On the RIGHT sleeve is the MUSICIAN patch under the patrol emblem.

Those are the proven facts. It is all in the BOOK. Evidently, your research didn't include reading any BSA publications.

Sheesh!

I mistyped on my last post and it wont let me correct it, so i have to do it this way.

I researched this for well over a month before placing my sons scribe patch on the right sleeve, if you really look at the inside back cover of the BS handbook, that patch is the ending of the Historian position and it is on the LEFT sleeve right below the Patrol patch and the American flag, if you want to look further, check out Badge Master or even look it up online and you'll see what goes where.

The Historian position patch is on the RIGHT sleeve below the Patrol patch and the american flag.....not on the LEFT.

Don't mean to make people angry.

You're not making me angry, you're frustrating me.

That's not the Historian patch. That's the MUSICIAN patch.

Read the Insignia Guide. It's at http://www.scouting.org/media/insigniaguide/06C.aspx

Here, I'll paste it in for you.

Librarian,, cloth, No. 00432, Boy Scout, left sleeve, position 3.

Quartermaster, cloth, No. 00431, Boy Scout, left sleeve, position 3.

Scribe, cloth, No. 00430, Boy Scout, left sleeve, position 3.

It's the same for every "badge of office" with the exception of "Musician" probably because a boy can be Historian and a Musician at the same time.

Are those enough facts for you?

Fastbow

Your error is in assuming by the two letter "AN" on the edge of the patch you are seeing is the HISTORIAN's patch.

It is not.

It is the MUSICIAN's patch which, unlike a position of responsibility patch, is worn on the right sleeve rather than the left.

You were incorrect in the patch placement on your son's uniform. The SPL was incorrect in how he handled it.

Rather than go by the unrecognizable slice of a patch in the handbook, you should consider using the BSA Insignia Guide to find the correct display locations for the various awards and recognitions. And perhaps you need to be a little more trusting of others with more experience...even when they are youth.

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The correct patch placement is inside the Boy Scout Handbook. It's also in the Insignia Guide & probably tons of other places. GW has given you the correct info fastbow.

fastbow- I have no idea where you got this idea of separating "badges of office" into 'leadership patches' and 'job patches'. That is just incorrect. SM, ASM, JASM, SPL, ASPL, PL, APL Bugular, Scribe, Quartermaster, Historian, Librarian, Den Chief, Chaplin's Aide, Instructor are ALL "badges of office" and as such, are worn on the left sleeve.

Here is a link to the Uniform inspection sheet: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/Youth/~/media/legacy/assets/forms/34283.pdf.ashx

Note that is says "badge of office" goes on the left sleeve. It shows a "Musician" patch on the right sleeve, which, as others have pointed out is NOT a 'badge of office'. (the sheet notes that this is worn if the scout is a member of a troop band or drum corps).

Get a copy of the Insignia Guide!! I am uncertain how much insignia placement is given in the current edition of the Boy Scout Handbook. In my day, the inside covers (back and front) gave the position diagrams to the 2 sleeves and 2 pockets, and there was an illustrated uniform shirt with all possible patches pointed out. There is no excuse for putting badges of office patches on the right sleeve.

One big mistake I see (of many) is that too often scouts have too much space between the patches on the left sleeve. This can cause problems with wearing all the patches they need do, for scouts with shorter sleeves. All patches on the left sleeve (as shown on the inspection sheet) need to be tight together. If a scout has half an inch space between the patches, it looks sloopy and sometimes makes it hard to get everything on.

I noticed a lot of questions.

I have a young tiger den and most of the parents look to me for a lot of things. When it comes to uniforms, I have helped all but two get their patches right. That is because they have all asked me and stated that they did not have the means or skills to do the job. I had no problem with that. All our boys look the same and we only had one issue which was easily fixed.

That is the type of person that I am. My mother told me when I was younger that if I was going to keep earning merit badges and temporary patches, then I was going to learn to sew.

Now when my wife tries to take off those patches she cusses me for sewing them on TOO well.

The issue might be the the scouts are trying to do the sewing. Or it might be that the parent sewing does not know where the stuff goes. Try to help out and be a part of the solution. Uniform inspections and guidelines are something that can be passed on.

I'm ashamed that I do not have uniform firmness. I'm rather firm in my arms and legs but sadly, around the middle not so much. I don't have unifirm neatness.