Board of Review's

I thought I had read somewhere that the scout must come "properly dressed" but am unable to locate where I had seen that. Does anyone else remeber seeing that or am I imagining it?

Also properly dressed to you means.....

Why would a scout not want to come to a Board of Review in uniform.

To me properly dressed would be the scout wearing as complete a uniform as possible for him (do your best). Seems I've heard that phrase somewhere before.

from the BSA publication "Advancement Committee, Policies and Procedures"

"The Scout should be neat in his appearance and his uniform

should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It should be the desire of the board to encourage the Scout to talk so that the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board."

A scout uniform is not required for membership so it can not be required for a Board of Review

Tks OGE, I have a training issue with members of the committee, The SM just stepped down so now it's me however I'm stipulating that I'll accept the position if:

1. If you accept a leadership position within the troop you must go to training for said position.

The others dont relate to this discussion. Where did you find the info on the uniform is not required?

Put the two facts that OGE puts together, and the BOR gets to use their wisdom in determining a course of action. If a scout comes in without a uniform, the BOR members can ask questions to ascertain why. If they find that the scout is from a poor family that cannot afford a uniform, and that scout has a paper route, but those funds go towards lunch, they may compliment the scout for what he has done, and then take back to the troop committe that there is a needy scout, and the troop committee may choose to help the scout obtain a uniform.

If they find that the scout had the resources and opportunity to get a uniform, but chose not to get or wear one, then the BOR may choose to compliment the scout on all he has done, and then tell the scout that they will be willing to set up a follow-up BOR when he is wearing a uniform as correct as possible.

By no means am I advocating that not wearing the full uniform should be a pass-fail test at a BOR, but rather, for the BOR to use it as a factor to consider when determining if the scout has met the scout spirit requirement.

Before anyone jumps on "but the SM signed off on the scout spirit requirement so that is all the justification needed" I would add that everyone needs to be on the same page, and supporting each other in achieving the aims. If there is that much difference between what the BOR, the SM, the committee, and the CO are looking for, then they need to get together and discuss what their true aims are, and what is important in applying the methods to achieve them.

Please try to avoid legalistic, letter of the law interpretations of rules and regulations. We are trying to build men of high ethical character, and ethics is different than obeying laws.

Aren't hypothetical questions fun?

Venividi,

You raise some interesting points, the committee member simply dismissed him to return with a complete uniform..FYI this is a troop of about 7 boys only of which 4 usually shows..

I've got my work cust our for me!

Ron,

Yes, sounds like you have your work cut out for you - but hopefully it will be able to be handled with a conversation or three. Need to understand why the BOR dismissed him to come back with a complete uniform. There may be a good reason, or maybe not.

Need to understand why the scout came to the BOR without the full uniform if he knew that was the expectation. There may be a good reason, or maybe not.

And with the small size of the troop, you don't have the luxury of pulling someone else in from the bench, so to speak. You have to work with what you have. If your committee members won't go to training or read the advancement guidelines, you will be unable to force them. But you CAN pull all the parents together to explain your vision, and how it will benefit their sons. And acceptance that everyone sees things differently, and conversations are the only way for the group to learn from past and agree on steps to improve in the future.

Venividi,

OGE is right on the money. If a BOR would tell a Scout they will reconvene when he has a full uniform, they are adding to the requirements and that is not allowed. Scout Spirit is defined as living the Scout Oath & Law in you everyday life. Neither mention wearing a uniform. A Scout would have a great reason to appeal the BOR decision and would win.

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

Yah, and OGE's quote from the advancement guidelines book only applies to BORs from Tenderfoot through Life. There is no similar language in the ACP&P section on Eagle BOR's.

Dealin' with difficult people isn't worth the time, when yeh can just reconvene with different membership on the EBOR, eh?

evmori,

I have no problem with your and OGE's position. I am sure it works well for you. I just don't think it is the only legitimate interpretation of the two seemingly conflicting facts about uniforms that OGE presented.

For what its worth, I would have issue with a BOR that sumarily dismissed a scout in the referenced situation without commencing the review and asking questions about why. The responses to these questions can be one factor (of many) to be considered. As SM, I would talk to the BOR members to find out why they made the decision they did, and attempt to get everyone on the same page with respect to achieving the aims of scouting.

I believe that everything I stated was consistent with both "The Scout should be neat in his appearance and his uniform should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It should be the desire of the board to encourage the Scout to talk so that the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board." and "A scout uniform is not required for membership..." If a scout does not have a uniform, it may very well be that is as correct a uniform as he can have. The BOR doesn't know unless they ask. If the scout could have had "a uniform that is as correct as possible", but chose not to, that could generate a good discussion where "the review can be a learning experience for the candidate and the members of the board".

I agree with you that if a decision is made solely on wearing or not wearing full uniform or not, that is likely appealable. I was trying to point out that discussing the reasons can help illuminate the larger picture. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Perhaps I am still not.

Cheers.

It's a deal breaker for me if they do not want to go to training, they can locate another SM..it's just that important to me.

The funny thing is that in the by-laws (dont get me started on this) It specifys that the SM must be wood badged and teh SPL must go to Brownsea ( that's are local terminology for youth training)

The committee member in question is a real difficult person scouts do not liek to call her to arrange a BOR.

Venividi,

I think the key is his uniform should be as correct as possible. If everything at the BOR was to the satisfaction of the board and the Scout was not passed because he didn't have a uniform, then he would have a valid reason to appeal & he would win.

Scoutmaster Ron,

What other "deal breakers" do you have in your Troop that could be considered adding to or subtracting from the requirements?

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

I think Venividi's analysis makes sense--while a scout isn't required to have a uniform to be a member, if he has one, he should wear it to his Board of Review, and it's legitimate to ask him why.

My son has just grown out of his Scout pants, and I have not had the opportunity to take him yet for new ones. That means that tonight he will go to his Scout meeting with non-uniform pants. This lapse in correct uniforming is not due to any lack of Scout Spirit on his part.

I'd remind the Committee that if they step out of the lane established for them under Advancement Policies and Procedures, the Scout can appeal to the District Advancement Committee!!

As you get to know your Scouts, and you perceive an unfairness by a BOR, you might even encourage a Scout/parents to seek recourse. It'll certainly get the attention of the Chairman!

(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

>>But you CAN pull all the parents together to explain your vision, and how it will benefit their sons. And acceptance that everyone sees things differently, and conversations are the only way for the group to learn from past and agree on steps to improve in the future.