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  • #61
    jblake47 ... Glad your scouting units are doing well. Our cub scouts are down year after year. That directly affects our troops.

    I'm glad to be a friend to any youth. I'm glad to help in any way I can.

    ....

    IMHO, trust is everything. If I can't reasonably trust him, I don't want him on camp outs. On camp our outs, scouts are often on their own for hours at a time. Other side of camp. Hiking. Transitions between activities. The biggest one is eight hours a night for sleeping. We don't have someone up all night. We need to trust them. At troop meetings, scouts often spend 20 or 30 minutes playing games outside and burning off energy.

    We don't observe scouts minute to minute. Trust is key.

    So maybe let him continue as a member, but no camping. At least he gets to choose whether he completes his Eagle rank then.

    Comment


    • #62
      Something else to consider isn't just the incident itself, but the history of deceit that has obviously been happening with this scout for some time. He didn't find this bag of dope at the waterfront, he brought it with him. That means he purchased it from a drug dealer, probably someone in his school. This also tells us this isn't the first time he has smoked pot, he has a pot habit now. And he felt it was ok to bring it with him to scout camp and then saw no reason why he shouldn't share it with other scouts. This isn't a case of a scout making a simple error in judgement, this scout is making a lot of bad decisions in a row. I like to believe the second chances and lessons learned as a Scout happen all the way through a Scout's career and this is a tough lesson the scout needs to learn, breaking the rules and being on the wrong side of the law means you lose rights and privileges and pay the consequences. There is no way I would sign off on a SM Conference for Eagle, or any other rank for quite some time.

      Comment


      • #63
        At some time or another in life, we all have to "bounce back" from doing something stupid, wrong, mean, or whatever. No one slides through life without picking up a few scars along the way.

        I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to undo something that has probably taken years to develop as Dubroq points out. But the lesson is not something that can be pencil whipped like advancement requirements. It's going to take time to heal, time to build trust, time to make amends, time for a whole bunch of stuff to happen for this boy to undo the damage. However, the time should be reasonable. If after 6-8 months he's showing progress and building trust, then maybe a year would be okay to relax around him. But a constant dialog with the boy on his journey of recovery is really important because he's going to have to learn to trust adults as well. They're all going to be coming down pretty hard on him and there's one thing every kid knows, adults have a tendency to remember such things far beyond what is necessary. This isn't going to be a quick, take a pill, kind of fix. It's a healing process that can't be rushed.

        Stosh

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        • #64
          I spent an hour talking to this boy last night. I spent the first 5 minutes telling him I'd like help him to get through this in a positive way. Then I told him if he ever lies to me again he will be out of the troop that day. Then I asked him some hard questions. He gave me honest answers, some of which surprised the parents. He even told me I scare him but that he respects me. Fair enough.

          ​It's really easy to talk about character in the abstract. When it's put in the context of real people with real issues, it's much harder. The hard part won't be for him to understand that what he did was wrong, or even repairing what he broke, the hard part will be changing his life so this doesn't happen again.

          I don't remember seeing anything about this in the SM handbook. I'm making this up as I go and talking to lots of people. I hope some of this rubs off on him.

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          • #65
            Good luck Matt. Wish you the best. These situations are never easy and there are no step by step instructions. Good luck.

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            • #66
              MattR, You've taken the first step and it's a good one. You set up the boundaries, you got a commitment and you gained respect as a helpful ally in this young man's recovery. Well done. The trust will need time, but it sounds like you'll do alright. Keep us posted, I think this boy has a chance. Yes, like Fred says, there are no instructions, but I'm thinking that so far, you've got the right attitude to make it work.

              Stosh

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              • #67
                We adults have to grow faster than the boys so as not to become a barrier to their growth. I found the skills and lessons I learned from the adversity of working with one struggling scout would get used again for several other scouts. Be sure and hand down those skills and lessons to new scouters. Barry

                Comment


                • #68
                  I wonder, why isn't this in the SM handbook? Could it possibly be that the roles of drug counselor, social worker, and probation officer were never intended to be part of a SM's job description?

                  Even if the SM does a great job and everything turns out well, I still think the SE and CO should have stepped in on this one.
                  Last edited by David CO; 07-02-2014, 04:21 PM.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by David CO View Post
                    I wonder why isn't this in the SM handbook? Could it possibly be that the roles of drug counselor, social worker, and probation officer were never intended to be part of a SM's job description?

                    Even if the SM does a great job and everything turns out well, I still think the SE and CO should have stepped in on this one.
                    I agree David, except in one thing, notifying the SE and CO are not optional steps. Failure to notify the SE and CO is a Charter violation.

                    The SM and/or CC don't get to decide this scouts future with scouts, this matter isn't handled at that level. In as far as counseling the scout, that's certainly beyond the scope of a SM's role.

                    Setting a poor example by not following the rules, and law, is also not appropriate for a SM. Not reporting a felony to law enforcement is a crime in every state I'm aware of. Distribution of narcotics to someone below the age od majority is a felony in every state I'm aware of.

                    Failure to report criminal activity on BSA property is a violation of BSA national policy.

                    What an amazing example!
                    Last edited by Old_OX_Eagle83; 07-02-2014, 02:02 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Lest by the back-and-forth between diatribes anyone has lost the evolving story ...

                      SE was notified, which necessarily brought in the cops, etc... CO notified (and, since it sounds like a fairly healthy community with an active grapevine, so was everyone else). All official boxes checked. Officially, the COR and CC can determine the boy's membership status: on the roster, off the roster, somewhere in between.

                      Guess what? Once all of the official stuff is done, none of that matters. Boy can be banned from campouts/meetings/advancement or any combination thereof. MattR is stuck. Years of working with the kid trumps paperwork or degrees at the end of one's name. Trusted by dad, feared by boy, he is uniquely qualified to lend a hand. And, durn that third point of the scout law, it leaves precious little loop holes! Been there, done that, seen it done. Probably shoulda wrote the book.

                      The real challenge is balancing time so this one kid's issues don't become all-consuming. You need to give the kid enough of your ear so he can tell you what's going on between his ears, but (and this is they only practical suggestion I have) just like finding a kid counselors for MBs, you need to get the kid to tell you who he can go to (besides yourself) to address each problem that's put on the table. And over time, follow-up to make sure those "counseling" relationships are doing what you would intend them to do.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
                        I agree David, except in one thing, notifying the SE and CO are not optional steps. Failure to notify the SE and CO is a Charter violation.
                        As long as the incident occurred at BSA camp, I'm sure they handled their part of the process and notified the SE. If the SE wants the CO to know, he can follow up on that as well. The BSA and CO are chartered without necessitating any involvement by the SM.

                        Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
                        The SM and/or CC don't get to decide this scouts future with scouts, this matter isn't handled at that level. In as far as counseling the scout, that's certainly beyond the scope of a SM's role.
                        !
                        I'm sure the SE can do his job and tend to this problem without the SM or CC if he/she so chooses. He/she will notify the SM/CC if there are any changes in the boys status with the BSA.

                        Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
                        Setting a poor example by not following the rules, and law, is also not appropriate for a SM. Not reporting a felony to law enforcement is a crime in every state I'm aware of. Distribution of narcotics to someone below the age od majority is a felony in every state I'm aware of.
                        !
                        I'm thinking that the camp's coverage of the incident will suffice. There was no time the SM did not follow the rules and law.

                        Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
                        Failure to report criminal activity on BSA property is a violation of BSA national policy.
                        !
                        I hope the camp does their followup then. The SM wasn't even there to be able to report anything.

                        Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
                        What an amazing example!
                        First of all MattR makes it clear he was NOT at camp. He was not witness to this incident. When notified he directed the people who were there to follow the camp's policy and see to it the boy was sent home.

                        So... What's MattR supposed to do, report hearsay evidence to everyone he can think of? Nope, told them to follow BSA protocol! Correct answer.

                        Having NOT heard from the SE, the boy was kicked out of Scouts, he began the process of working it through with the parents and the boy. Correct response.

                        I'm thinking MattR did exactly the right thing and didn't go meddling into areas he didn't belong, and his follow up comment about working with the boy was spot on!

                        “Do what you feel in your heart to be right – for you’ll be criticized anyway.”
                        Eleanor Roosevelt

                        This woman was a class act!

                        Stosh

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Old_OX_Eagle83 ...

                          "Failure to notify the SE and CO is a Charter violation" ... Show me the BSA document or explain your rationale. In this specific situation, it's moot as the camp as notified (thus SE) and SM and CC are involved. (representatives of the CO).

                          "SM and/or CC don't get to decide ..." ... Unit leaders have the right to kick them out of the troop. SE also may choose in to kick out of scouts. Both SE and unit leaders have to choose to keep the scout.

                          "Felony" ... If this was a felony situation, the kid would be done. Period. But we're talking a misdemeanor, not a felony ... unless he has a large amount or is selling it for profit.



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                          • #73
                            While the conduct of the SM and CC certainly do reflect on the Chartered Organization, it is the IH and COR who actually represent the CO.

                            I would not feel that the CO was correctly notified unless the IH and COR were fully informed of the situation.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Okay, the list of who should be directly informed ...

                              SE, COR (and IH), CC, and all direct-contact leaders (SM, ASMs, Advisors, & associates).
                              That last one can get pretty hairy. The list of associate leaders's can be longer than the number of folks likely to actually deal with the boy in question. That's why it's usually on the SM and Advisor(s) to pass it down the chain at their discretion. Likewise, CC determines if any of this should go to committee.

                              You will find in situations like these, a scout is terribly uncomfortable with everyone knowing his faults.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Been there, done that. Had exactly the same conversation with the Scout you did, Matt. Tears and all. Swore he'd never do it again. Parents hired an attorney and got him off. His big "punishment" was to pay his attorney's fees. Of course, he couldn't get a job without transportation, so dad bought him a new car.

                                Since earning Eagle he has been busted twice more.

                                The deal breaker here is bringing the weed to summer camp and offering it to other Scouts. That's a deal breaker. He'd be out of the troop. You need to consider the other Scouts and the trust their parents place in you.

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