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  • #46
    Originally posted by GeorgiaMom View Post

    I hope you're kidding. If I were ever expected to break up a *knife fight* as a leader in any activity, with kids or adults, I would be calling the police to handle it, resigning, and taking my kids elsewhere. That is insane.
    Nope, not at all.

    Originally posted by GeorgiaMom View Post
    Hmm...I love teaching kids like my son and my daughter, and many of their friends. They listen, behave, and treat each other with respect.

    I think the BSA has to start delivering what they advertise, or advertising what they deliver. Is it a character and skill development program where respect for leaders and other Scouts is expected, or is it an outdoorsy reform school?

    I do expect a certain baseline of behavior before kids enter a program like this. I expect behavior like hitting and throwing things to be left behind in preschool. I would be embarrassed if my elementary school age child ever acted this way, much less a teenager.

    I think we have a different definition of "young boy". The people you are describing are not "young boys", they are not able to function in polite society. I would be ashamed if my five year old couldn't refrain from violence and stealing. If you find fulfillment in taking kids at this very low level of behavior and trying to rehabilitate them, that's great. The world needs you.

    I didn't sign up my son to be in a Lord of the Flies, reform school atmosphere. I am investing a lot of time and money to have him learn skills, teamwork, and character above and beyond the basic expectations we've taught him at home.

    GA Mom
    In an ideal world, I would tend to agree with you and I have met a ton of really nice kids. I have worked with not so nice kids that turned into really nice kids. I have worked with a ton of what you would maybe define as reform school kids, (by the way, they were reform school kids) that some turned it around and did fairly well in life. I have had autistic, ADD, ADHD, mentally challenged, boys come through my programs. Some do well by the program, others not so well, but all of them have been better off having spent time in Scouting.

    If one is at all interested in knowing more about what BSA is supposed to be, go back to it's roots. Look at what BP had to say about the boys he worked with. Then do a Google search on Tom Slade, BSA. I think one might get a wee bit of where I'm coming from We don't get to cherry pick the boys (and girls) we have sign up with our program, but one has to be flexible enough to work with them all, even the Lord of the Flies, reform school kids.

    I'd love to have a whole troop of well behaved, motivated boys, but at age 63, I haven't found it yet. Maybe next year.

    Stosh

    Comment


    • #47
      I tell folks who have a Rockwellian ideal of all Scouts that they are thinking of the finished product -- I'm working with raw materials.

      Comment


      • #48
        It disturbs me that we are talking about a kid who bullies other kids and are wondering how to treat him. I think we need to focus on the kids that are the target of his bullying and figure out how we are treating THEM!!

        We tell our kids nowadays that its ok to "tell" when you are being bullied. Its better than other options of loss of self esteem, or even suicide.

        So it seems the boys are telling when this is happening to them and what exactly is the result of their actions? To the bullied kids it appears to be nothing, the bully scout is still their troop guide and still in the troop.

        This is not a trivial thing and should not be treated as such. There needs to be VISIBLE consequences for this kid instead of trying to bubble wrap everything at the expense of the self esteem of his victims.

        After you make sure that the victims of his actions are ok, then you look at him and remember he is still a kid as well. I cannot belive that a troop would give a POR to a kid who acts like that though. He should have to earn it. And the boys who he has victimized should see him earn his POR before he gets it back too.


        (You are telling us about bullying acts that you have witnessed. Think of what he may do when there are no witnesses and not all boys tell when they are under attack from a bully).

        Comment


        • #49
          JC, I agree with you. The bully is not the victim. This is a topic that OGE and I used to agree on - in opposition to (dredging a memory out of all those tangled plaques now) Beavah and a few others. The real victims who may need help with healing are the boys who are bullied.

          Comment


          • #50
            As adults we have an obligation to the victims of bullying. They are the first concern. The bully themselves may be given some corrective action, and for some that works. For others like in the OP. That Scout is a scourge on the troop, and I'd get rid of him. I've been in scouting for 10 years. I've seen bullying situations where all learn valuable lessons from it, the bully sees his errors and the situation has a nice resolution. I've also seen a chronic bully shown the door.

            Comment


            • #51
              I, too, have seen some bullies do a 180 and turn into great scouts.

              Each one needs to be evaluated individually. A generic rule for the troop would mean that at some time or another every boy would need to be kicked out.

              Stosh

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by jblake47 View Post
                I, too, have seen some bullies do a 180 and turn into great scouts.

                Each one needs to be evaluated individually. A generic rule for the troop would mean that at some time or another every boy would need to be kicked out.

                Stosh
                I don't agree with this. I have no problem with having a generic rule for serious infractions: deliberately hitting another child, misuse of a knife to threaten or hurt someone, etc. First offense: short suspension, face to face apology to child/ren who were hurt, and conference with Scout and parents. Second offense: Out of the pack/troop.

                I strongly disagree with the notion I've read in many responses that this kind of hitting/fighting/stealing etc are just a normal part of being a boy and "every boy would need to be kicked out" at some point if we took a stand against this sort of behavior.

                Please do not include my son in this scenario. He's never hit anyone in his life. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He is certainly not "Rockwellian" or perfect by any means, as an other poster asked. He forgets to clean his room, I got a call about him locking the boys bathroom stalls at school and climbing under them etc. There are many miles of difference between boys being silly and boys knowingly hurting people. We all know the difference.

                If a Scout deliberately hurts someone, please don't wait for years to address it, allowing multiple Scouts to feel they have to leave the situation. Address it quickly, for the Scout's sake as much as everyone else's. The younger a Scout is when this kind of violent behavior is addressed, the better the chances of helping him stop.

                I know bullies. My father was one. The therapist's term was "malignant narcissist". She explained to me that once people cross the line where they are willing to hurt others, physically or verbally, to increase their own self esteem and feeling of power and control, it's very hard to bring them back to socially acceptable behavior. Once empathy is gone from a person, it's very hard to get back.

                I have a bit of a raw nerve on this topic. I know very well what it's like to be hurt over and over and told that "he'll get better and stop doing this, he can't help it, he has issues, etc." Abusers abuse people because it feels good, and they'll go on doing it as long as no one opposes them.

                When youth group leaders excuse away this kind of behavior, justify it by laying blame on the home situation, or worst of all take no action, they are enablers. The leaders only hurt the bully and the victim, and they are complicit in the abuse by knowingly allowing it to continue.

                As a parent, I will never, ever, allow my son or my daughter to be in a situation where they are physically hurt by another child (or an adult). I have no interest in organizations that think my child should tolerate being hurt while some other violent kid takes his time to get his act together. My child is not a punching bag.

                Georgia Mom
                Last edited by Sentinel947; 06-12-2014, 08:36 PM. Reason: Doing my job, clean and scouting appropriate language only. Thank you- Sentinel947

                Comment


                • #53
                  GAMom,

                  I don't know how the troop in your area is set up, but what you describe is something I've never had to address. I have never had one scout even attempt to harm another scout. My experience of dealing with such thing have occurred when I was in a different setting, i.e. CampMaster for the summer camp or some such thing outside my troop.

                  Every boy that enters my scout troop knows about Rule #1 Safety First. This applies to the information in the little pamphlet inside the front cover of every scout book. I tell my boys that if they do not feel safe in the troop for any reason, they are to tell their PL. If the threat comes from the PL or the PL doesn't do anything about it, then go to the SM, If the threat comes from the SM or the SM doesn't do anything about it then another adult, then the parents, then anyone who will listen and as a last resort call the police. PERIOD.

                  There are no second chances in my troop.

                  Oh, by the way. Regardless of the physical, emotional, psychological or whatever problems a boy brings with him into the troop, it doesn't seem to manifest itself. I have never had to kick a kid out of Scouts.

                  Maybe it's because I make the situation very clear before the crap happens. Rules, second chances, excuses, etc. are generally for those who don't do that and have to deal with such things after the fact.

                  I have worked with BSA groups from Cubbing through to Venturing, I have worked with church youth groups, social youth groups, and at-risk youth groups and believe it or not the best behaved are the at-risk kids. They know they are on the cusp of some really bad stuff if they screw up. I hope you find a group for your children where none of this stuff happens, but I'm thinking that for the most part, it's a hopeless cause.

                  I was 4' 11" 98# when I started high school. Yeah, I know what it's like to be on the short end of the stick. I figured it out and got over it.

                  Actually, before he was my best friend in high school, he and I went a around or two after a den meeting one time. I remember having to explain the grass stains on my uniform to my mom.

                  Stosh

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by GeorgiaMom View Post

                    If a Scout deliberately hurts someone, please don't wait for years to address it, allowing multiple Scouts to feel they have to leave the situation. Address it quickly, for the Scout's sake as much as everyone else's. The younger a Scout is when this kind of violent behavior is addressed, the better the chances of helping him stop.

                    I know bullies. My father was one. The therapist's term was "malignant narcissist". She explained to me that once people cross the line where they are willing to hurt others, physically or verbally, to increase their own self esteem and feeling of power and control, it's very hard to bring them back to socially acceptable behavior. Once empathy is gone from a person, it's very hard to get back.

                    I have a bit of a raw nerve on this topic. I know very well what it's like to be hurt over and over and told that "he'll get better and stop doing this, he can't help it, he has issues, etc." Abusers abuse people because it feels good, and they'll go on doing it as long as no one opposes them.

                    When youth group leaders excuse away this kind of behavior, justify it by laying blame on the home situation, or worst of all take no action, they are enablers. The leaders only hurt the bully and the victim, and they are complicit in the abuse by knowingly allowing it to continue.

                    As a parent, I will never, ever, allow my son or my daughter to be in a situation where they are physically hurt by another child (or an adult). I have no interest in organizations that think my child should tolerate being hurt while some other violent kid takes his time to get his act together. My child is not a punching bag.

                    Georgia Mom
                    I'm with you on this GAMom. Your first priority is to your family. Your son sounds like a great guy.
                    Last edited by Sentinel947; 06-12-2014, 08:37 PM. Reason: Edited curse word out of quote, no other changes were made.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I think there are two major arguments here, and we are talking past each other. I doubt anybody in this thread is proposing that Physically violent bullies are given a handful of extra chances and pitied more than their victims. Not all bullying is violent bullying like some of the examples here. The OP's Scout hasn't attacked another youth. He doesn't seem to exhibit violent tendencies, or the OP would have noted that. All of the bullying situations I saw as a Scout weren't physical bullying, but more stealthy bullying like name calling and deliberate exclusion of Scouts.

                      Georgia Mom, I bet you and JBlake agree that a scout that is violent and aggressive to another Scout needs to be removed from the Troop.

                      These threads tend to get derailed by tangental posts unrelated to the OP.

                      the OP's can be read again. I think that Scout is a serious issue, and if he was in my Troop, I may already notified his parents that their Scout is no longer welcome in my unit. However, that is not the advice TwocudDad asked for. He is looking for advice on having a very important discussion with this Scout. That is the topic at hand, if we want to create a thread about bullying more broadly and how to remove violent Scouts from our units, we can have that discussion but it deserves it's own thread.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Sentinel, I think TwoCub understood how these things 'evolve' in these forums. The reason this went in the direction ti did, IMHO, is because TwoCub is a really nice guy and would like to see this bully improve and become more scoutlike. His request for assistance led some of the respondents to begin to question why so much attention was being paid to the bully, to the apparent neglect of the victim. The rest, as they say, is history.
                        For the record, I finally untangled some of those plaques and OGE and I were united with respect to a related topic of hazing. Whether hazing or bullying, I have never understood why some get pleasure from inflicting discomfort or pain on others. If TwoCub can discover a way to get through to his problem scout, I hope he'll report to the rest of us so we can benefit from his experience as well.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          YPT doesn't allow second chances with adults who take advantage of youth. Why should youth get second chances when they take advantage of youth?

                          YPT spells it out UP FRONT, not after the fact. It's time units deal with these problems before they become an issue.

                          Youth of this age know how to push the envelop. They are in the break-out stage of life where they test the limits of social norms. They have yet to learn to restrain themselves and need a program to explicitly spell that out in no uncertain terms. Well, we're so worried about being politically correct that we don't deal with the issue in straight forward discussions.

                          Rule #1 - Safety First. If you don't feel safe, tell someone immediately. End of discussion.

                          Stosh

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by jblake47 View Post
                            YPT doesn't allow second chances with adults who take advantage of youth. Why should youth get second chances when they take advantage of youth? YPT spells it out UP FRONT, not after the fact. It's time units deal with these problems before they become an issue. Youth of this age know how to push the envelop. They are in the break-out stage of life where they test the limits of social norms. They have yet to learn to restrain themselves and need a program to explicitly spell that out in no uncertain terms. Well, we're so worried about being politically correct that we don't deal with the issue in straight forward discussions. Rule #1 - Safety First. If you don't feel safe, tell someone immediately. End of discussion. Stosh
                            I completely agree ! Boys will be boys but they don't need to be mean to each other to have fun.

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