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So what do people think of the Training Changes?

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  • So what do people think of the Training Changes?

    I'm a little behind picking up with the changes as I am not the training chair anymore, just a trainer.. But, I just read the Training times for the Fall season and discovered the changes to the cub scout specifics training (only partially there).. So then I pulled the Den Leader Training syllabus and just read the prefix, which showed lots more changes to the program.. I have mixed feelings with these changes.. I also feel having heard others opinions on IOLS the changes would be received differently by different people..

    So the Train the Trainer is changing from just the EDGE course to 3 courses.!. The fundamentals of Training. Edge. and Master Trainer. So more training of trainers, don't know who is required to take any of it, except that the Edge is required of Woodbadge staff.. In a totally different path the cubs Specific Syllabus is not only approved to teach at District and Council level, but also at unit level.. So does this mean that someone with no "train the trainer" training, and maybe no care to even read the syllabus does whatever they think is sufficient and mark their Adult leader staff off as trained?..

    I guess I have mixed feelings for this. I had an ambitious notion of getting these specific trainings more available by promoting units who neighbor each other to form a cooperative and put the training on between people in the two or three units. When I proposed it, I got the deer-in-the-headlights look, no one was interested.. So will no one be interested in this "do it yourself" option. Or will they be for the wrong reasons of no one can see if it's done right or wrong. The mixing of units I liked also to give units who are not putting on a good program ideas on how to improve. If they just live in their own bubble, how can they recognize they have room for improving their program? But, there are also units, who are already excellent and of those units, I see no problem if they choose to run their own program.. unfortunately they are packs already good, and they have a desire to remain with a good program.

    I am for smaller and simpler, but I guess I just am not for "stay in your own bubble" when doing training.. The good units will stay good, the bad units will stay bad.

    One thing I was happy to see, but I feel will cause those who love to state "The syllabus must be followed verbatim" was the following paragraph.

    ~This syllabus is not designed or intended to be read verbatim—with the exception
    of the Youth Protection presentation. Trainers should be familiar with the content
    and able to present it without reading. Experienced trainers can use their own words
    but must be sure to cover the content and meet the objectives of the session.

    I was never good at memorizing word, for word "verbatim" the syllabus, and never forced my staff to do what I could not do.. And no we did not stand up and "read" the syllabus to our participants. My staff and myself would pretty much train as this paragraph suggests it should be done.. So it relieves me of my guilty feelings because I didn't have a photographic memory..

  • #2

    Is this post quirky to others?.. When I posted it wanted to open or save something.. I said open, but it was in .json which it didn't know how to open.. So I got out and cam back. Now to me the comment is sort of their, but not really, then it disappears to an empty thread.

    Comment


    • #3
      I decided to repost my original post, as it just remains freaky.

      I'm a little behind picking up with the changes as I am not the training chair anymore, just a trainer.. But, I just read the Training times for the Fall season and discovered the changes to the cub scout specifics training (only partially there).. So then I pulled the Den Leader Training syllabus and just read the prefix, which showed lots more changes to the program.. I have mixed feelings with these changes.. I also feel having heard others opinions on IOLS the changes would be received differently by different people..

      So the Train the Trainer is changing from just the EDGE course to 3 courses.!. The fundamentals of Training. Edge. and Master Trainer. So more training of trainers, don't know who is required to take any of it, except that the Edge is required of Woodbadge staff.. In a totally different path the cubs Specific Syllabus is not only approved to teach at District and Council level, but also at unit level.. So does this mean that someone with no "train the trainer" training, and maybe no care to even read the syllabus does whatever they think is sufficient and mark their Adult leader staff off as trained?..

      I guess I have mixed feelings for this. I had an ambitious notion of getting these specific trainings more available by promoting units who neighbor each other to form a cooperative and put the training on between people in the two or three units. When I proposed it, I got the deer-in-the-headlights look, no one was interested.. So will no one be interested in this "do it yourself" option. Or will they be for the wrong reasons of no one can see if it's done right or wrong. The mixing of units I liked also to give units who are not putting on a good program ideas on how to improve. If they just live in their own bubble, how can they recognize they have room for improving their program? But, there are also units, who are already excellent and of those units, I see no problem if they choose to run their own program.. unfortunately they are packs already good, and they have a desire to remain with a good program.
      I am for smaller and simpler, but I guess I just am not for "stay in your own bubble" when doing training.. The good units will stay good, the bad units will stay bad.

      One thing I was happy to see, but I feel will cause those who love to state "The syllabus must be followed verbatim" was the following paragraph.

      This syllabus is not designed or intended to be read verbatim—with the exception
      of the Youth Protection presentation. Trainers should be familiar with the content
      and able to present it without reading. Experienced trainers can use their own words
      but must be sure to cover the content and meet the objectives of the session.

      I was never good at memorizing word, for word "verbatim" the syllabus, and never forced my staff to do what I could not do.. And no we did not stand up and "read" the syllabus to our participants. My staff and myself would pretty much train as this paragraph suggests it should be done.. So it relieves me of my guilty feelings because I didn't have a photographic memory..

      Comment


      • #4
        I've never been one that memorizes verbatim when it comes to training. As far as reading it to the participants, that's never been my style either. What I do is read it to myself multiple times and then when training, make sure I cover all the bases in detail, but using my own words. I think this is what the comment in the second to the last paragraph was intending to emphasize. Lecturing is never a good idea for anyone of any age. I try to get a reading on my audience to see how focused they are and if they are not, then reading is useless. They aren't going to pay attention anyway. I toss in an attention getter just before an important idea is being presented. "When it comes to YP, these are the things one needs to pay particular attention to and why." This draws everyone's attention, even if it be for a minute to a critical teaching point.

        Also placement in the presentation is vital as well. The most important issues are covered first while people are fresh. The first hour of the day will get better traction than the first hour after lunch. The last hour of the day is pretty much a waste of time unless one makes a big deal out of it.

        If one thinks that reading/verbatim during the hour after lunch or the last hour of the day is a good idea, think again.

        Stosh

        Comment


        • #5

          personally for me, if anyone gets up and reads to me anything, they loose me.. Unless there is a reason. It is a poem like "little Fellow Follows me" in the den cheif training, or a short story, or a small, very small "have to read" passage. But, if I have to read it, I would pass something out so they can read along. It is just I know personally I would remember it better in this manner. Otherwise someone reading to me looses my attention, and I sit there annoyed..

          I just know I have read trainers on this forum stating that the syllabus must be followed verbatim..

          Like you, I read the whole thing once, the sections I am going to do a few times.. Then I figure out how I am going to put it in my own words, while covering all the syllabus wants covered and practice it a few times.

          With the Cub Specifics I am happy all the power point is gone.. I only have 3 projectors, and it isn't enough for all those breakouts.. So I run the course hoping no one shows up for certain sections, or only one or two so it's a small group on a laptop..

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by moosetracker View Post
            So the Train the Trainer is changing from just the EDGE course to 3 courses.!.
            Counting twenty minutes of EDGE in place of the Patrol Method in the "Patrol Method" session of Scoutmaster Specific Training?

            Comment


            • moosetracker
              moosetracker commented
              Editing a comment
              No Kudu, you can breath as this is not in training for the youth at troop level. This is the Adult Leader EDGE training that was basically a day long training. That seems to be changing to 3 different courses.. I have no idea though what is required when. Right now, EDGE is only required for WB staffers, but they highly encouraged it for district level trainers, and of course was happy of anyone else with interest.

              One comes before the EDGE, as basic training.. So would you need to take that if you have already been EDGE trained before it came out?.. The other one is some Masters course, which they were trying to sell District Trainers to take, but you had to go to Philmont or something at that time, so I had no desire to spend the money. Sounds like that was Beta testing it. Now it is in full swing, so will that now be at council level?? If so is it still just highly suggested, with no one required to take it..

            • DuctTape
              DuctTape commented
              Editing a comment
              I think kudu is referring to Adult Leader training, he specifically stated the Scoutmaster Specific Training. In my experience, many of our adult leaders need more intensive training in how to train using the Patrol Method, not so much how to train specific skills using edge.

          • #7
            Much of my job as a statistician involves tutoring folks with varying levels of training in clinical research. I learned how to do much of what I do from literature a relative gave me on industrial training techniques. Then, I learned by doing and asking for very critical evaluations of my performance from people who I could trust to give me a straight answer. I have had no patience for the BSA materials because they are often too simplistic. Simply put, EDGE is inadequate. Our scouters would be much better served if the instructor provided them the reference and they went around in turn reading the material. (Some of them may be far better and engaging at reading out loud than the instructor. Regardless, our minds often "re attend" as soon as a new voice is heard - even if it's a voice asking to pass because they can't read well enough for the material.) Then the instructor provides some personal experience, or interpretation, or fields questions on the matter. This is, in rough form, how the West managed to drag itself out of the dark ages. That we think we can do much better by abandoning the most powerful of learning methods because the audience is adult, continues to stymie me.

            Comment


            • #8
              Moosetracker, I apologize but I confess...my eyes were glazing over by the time your first post got to 'cub scout specifics....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz'. I don't know how you can do this stuff.

              Comment


              • #9

                What packsaddle.. The course itself?.. That maybe because you are no longer some tenderfooted cubscout parent who just got roped into doing something you know nothing about, and have no clue how to do it..


                I myself haven't don't much with CS specifics.. I felt too rusty in the subject matter. I am dusting off my skill set though, so may feel confident enough to attempt it soon.

                Comment


                • #10
                  A whole course on EDGE? How can you possibly spend more than 20 minutes explaining EDGE?

                  Over the years I've defended EDGE as part of the Boy Scout program simply because it is ONE way of teaching Scouts how to teach and requires them to pay attention to where their students are in the learning process. I certainly don't think it is a good way to teach in every circumstance, but if you are new at being an instructor it's a good starting point. But for adult trainers?

                  Comment


                  • moosetracker
                    moosetracker commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Most our trainings are $8 to $10.. But to keep IOLS at $10 bucks, we expect patrols to organize and buy their food, and we have to hold class not in council camps because the charge for it.. IOLS still has to have a cooking demo which means purchasing food, and if we have it at the Masonic hall, they expect a donations.. Other trainings it's for Xerox copies, and usually we have coffee and refreshments. But, it sounds like NeverAnEagle council over charges, of course if they always teach at a council camp, that could explain it..

                    Sorry I'm volunteering my time to be a trainer.. So I'm not paying out of my personal pocket for the meeting place and for feeding you all day.

                  • packsaddle
                    packsaddle commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Nor should you. The expenses should be paid by the district or the council. They should pay YOUR expenses too.

                  • moosetracker
                    moosetracker commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Well, I am fine with everyone pay for food.. What burned me was when they stopped allowing us use of the camps for free to do training.. Now, I have to work hard to find something that will allow us free to very, very cheap that is not scout property.. I would rather donate $25 to a Mason organization for use of their facility then pay $125 for the use of scout property.. I could understand if a paying customer came first, and we got bumped or moved to the not so nice location.. But, charging us a high price when we could be training 1 or 25, was ridiculous.

                • #11

                  A few hours are on teaching the EDGE method, but they have each participant bring something physical that they can do a demonstration on. You are not suppose to have your whole demonstration prepared and practiced though. Then after the instruction, they give you time to prep your presentation, you break down into small groups of about 6 people and you listen to each of your teams presentations and critique them afterwards.

                  Comment


                  • HICO_Eagle
                    HICO_Eagle commented
                    Editing a comment
                    .... and THIS is why I hated Trainer's EDGE when I took it. I can afford the course fee but I hate losing a whole Saturday to garbage like this when I don't need it. I would recommend the course highly to someone who has never trained or instructed kids before but it's just a little annoying after 20+ years of teaching Scouts.

                • #12
                  GAD!!!

                  Moose, you've successfully caused me to remember the spectre of sitting through required presentations back when I was working for the federal government. Someone, please pass the Flavor Aid.

                  Comment


                  • #13

                    So sorry packsaddle. But that is what it is!.. Never sat through federal government presentations, but it did sort of remind me of my speech class in college when I took it.. But my college class wasn't all that bad, I do remember on guys presentation on changing a tire, and it was the first time I ever heard "Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosie" and that was never forgotten.. So it had it's merits. In BSA you need to present something that is scout oriented.. One guy through us when we learned origami.. We're all doing origami and thinking, this guy didn't pay attention to the rules.. Then come to find out he was cubscouts and some cub scout rank advancement could be accomplished with origami skills..

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      EDGE is required for people to be Trainer's. Not just Wood Badge. The Cubscout Program is changing in 2015. Philmont Training Center has a course that explains/trains about it this Summer. I like the coming changes. Having people fully understand what is required for the Program is a good thing, since what is done in Den/Pack meetings vary wildly from Unit to Unit. Plus having people trained in what the Program is and how to put it on will help retain Scouts, Scouters & Parents within the program and get them to the next level. Plus, if everyone in the Pack Committee understands what is supposed to happen, then there will be/should be less headaches.

                      EDGE training besides what's in a Troop, is based upon how to provide better training to those who show up. It's a good class. I have taken it and helped put it on. Besides, if you have Trainer's who are training and do not have EDGE, technically, those Training Cards are not vaild... EDGE Training is valid for three years.

                      Comment


                      • Eagle92
                        Eagle92 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        JoeBob,

                        Just wait until national requires you to redo basic training every time they change the name of the courses. They already tried to do that once, and the result is it is up to the discretion of the local training chairs.

                        Just follow the advice of one DE I had, every time I teach a course, I put my name on the rooster. as a student as well.

                      • jblake47
                        jblake47 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        How does one put their name on a rooster?



                        Stosh

                      • Brewmeister
                        Brewmeister commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Very, very carefully
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