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  • #31
    I also was in a "hiking and camping" troop, and earned eagle in '76. Thinking back on the 25 or so eagles from different troops I knew pretty well back then, I would say it was a 50-50 mix. One couldnt light a fire with a whole box of kitchen matches,one could light one with his scout knife, a lump of quartz,and some cattail fluff. It just depended on how well you needed to know a skill before you were signed off. In my troop for example it was not enough to tell my PL how to sharpen an ax. He showed me how, then handed me the dullest one I had ever seen and told me to bring it back when I thought it was sharp. It took me 2 hours and three tries, but I never forgot how. He did this with almost everything. I was angry with him at the time, but when I was a PL and had to teach those very same skills I blessed him for it.
    Other troops all you needed to do was listen to some summer camp CIT mumble about it.
    I see pretty much the same today. Except I think the ratio is sadly 70-30 in terms of camping skills.
    I cannot blame most of the current crop of leaders, they try they really do, but they have spent most of their life at a desk, woodsmen (or woodswomen) are getting scarce nowadays. You can't teach what you don't know. and a weekend or two at IOLS can not replace hundreds of hours in the woods.
    Oldscout

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Oldscout448 View Post
      Other troops all you needed to do was listen to some summer camp CIT mumble about it.
      That is the purpose of ItOLS: To teach indoor volunteers how to sign off Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class in about 20 hours, the same number of hours as most "first year" summer camp programs.

      Originally posted by Oldscout448 View Post
      I cannot blame most of the current crop of leaders, they try they really do, but they have spent most of their life at a desk, woodsmen (or woodswomen) are getting scarce nowadays.
      Baloney, OldScout, Baloney!

      Baden-Powell had the same problem 100 years ago. So he designed Wood Badge for 20th century indoor volunteers who spent most of their life at a desk, as a week-long immersion course in how to think like woodsmen.

      Wood Badge for the 21st century teaches indoor volunteers that success formula "leadership skills" they can use in their life at a desk, are the mountaintop experience of Scouting.

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      • Oldscout448
        Oldscout448 commented
        Editing a comment
        In my old troop First class took about 100 hours, in my sons current troop I would say half of that.

        As to your second point I am some what confused, are you saying it is the SM fault or current WB fault or both?

      • Kudu
        Kudu commented
        Editing a comment
        OldScout: Both. Sorry, my sentences above are confusing. Rather than editing them, I will try again below.

        The central myth of Wood Badge is that woodsmen were more common in Baden-Powell's day. Scoutcraft was a collection of "practical" skills that boys needed for life on the farm.

        Baloney! Scouting has always been a game for city boys who spend too much time indoors.

        20th century parents were indoor adults that spent most of their life at a desk, same as now. So Baden-Powell designed Wood Badge as a week-long immersion course to teach desk riders how to think like woodsmen.

        Wood Badge for the 21st century teaches indoor volunteers that the mountaintop experience of Scouting is success formula "leadership skills" they can use for life indoors at a desk.

    • #33
      "Baloney! Scouting has always been a game for city boys who spend too much time indoors.

      20th century parents were indoor adults that spent most of their life at a desk, same as now. So Baden-Powell designed Wood Badge as a week-long immersion course to teach desk riders how to think like woodsmen."

      Aye, the truth, couldn't have written it any better myself. I've noticed recently that NYLT in my area has really started to de emphasize the Patrol Method as they've allowed Venture Scouts to start participating.

      Just curious Kudu, have you read "Baden Powell: The Two Lives of a Hero" by William Hillcourt?

      http://www.amazon.com/Baden-Powell-T.../dp/0963432001

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      • #34
        So, Kathy,

        How did this all shake out? Did your guys take the training? Did they staff it? Seeing as though its been almost a year since the initial post, are they fully functional & trained ASM's now?
        Last edited by ctbailey; 08-07-2014, 04:57 PM.

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        • #35
          1 got busy with school and activities the other fully functional but not trained. He's prepping for college now and while close enough he's not sure if he'll schedule will allow as much participation that he'd like but is planning on going with the troop to Philmont if they go over 2016 summer but since he'll be under 21 he will be going with a boy that turned 18 before they go as youth members tent buddies so 1 other adult wanting to go can go.

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          • #36
            Schedule the weekend, , pay the fee, camp, drink coffee, fry bacon, tie knots, walk thru the woods, ID trees, laugh around the campfire, put the Patch on the sleeve, keep your registration with the home Troop current, come back when you can, give the Scouts the same example and guidance you had.
            That's what I'd do.

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            • #37
              I've been camping since I was four years old. I've been hunting since I was 10 years old, owned my first gun at age 12. I've been hiking all my life, I've been outdoors and prefer to be outdoors as a major part of my life.

              When I became an ASM I tool SM Fundamentals. It was pretty painless. Kinda interesting, but kinda not necessary for me at least. I taught SM Fundamentals. Taught Webelos outdoors overnight for many years. WB was pretty much an OK, kinda thingy. Yet this past month I went through IOLS. Still didn't hurt one bit.

              Haven't been camping since last weekend and YES I did use some of those IOLS skills even though it wasn't a BSA activity. Hiked 10 miles on a bad knee and identified well over 40 different wild flowers along the way. Again, it wasn't a BSA activity but again I used IOLS skills.

              I re-took IOLS at summer camp this year, Not a problem didn't feel one twinge of pain. Kinda good to review and to see what BSA is teaching these days in the program.

              Eagle scout? Nope, earned 1 MB and never got to First Class after 4 years with scouting as a youth.

              The Eagle scout rank tells the world nothing about one's ability to master a skill or teach other youth about the skills necessary for outdoor activities. Eagle means one showed a scout leader that at least once one was able to do the skill. I does not mean one retained it, nor that one could teach it to someone else.

              Anyone who thinks they "know it all" and don't need the basic training to work with youth would draw a major level of concern from me and I would seriously think twice before taking them on as an ASM in my troop. I would prefer an inquisitive desk jocky over a know-it-all Eagle any day.

              36 responses on this thread: Everyone should take the training. I have gotten up in the morning and gone out to start my morning coffee and seen Eagle scouts work over 30 minutes trying to get a fire going for breakfast, so don't tell me they don't need training...THEY DO!

              Stosh

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              • #38
                *sigh...I miss the reply to post button....

                That being said, Everyone should be trained, no exceptions. When you sew on that trained patch, everyone whose been trained knows what you have been trained on. It's not that big a pain to go through, suck it up and go. I think the training should expire and make them go again every couple years.

                Of course it wouldn't be that much of a pain to offer this at camporee's, summer camp. Betcha get a lot more trained leaders that way.

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                • #39
                  Originally posted by duckfoot View Post
                  *sigh...I miss the reply to post button....

                  That being said, Everyone should be trained, no exceptions. When you sew on that trained patch, everyone whose been trained knows what you have been trained on. It's not that big a pain to go through, suck it up and go. I think the training should expire and make them go again every couple years.

                  Of course it wouldn't be that much of a pain to offer this at camporee's, summer camp. Betcha get a lot more trained leaders that way.
                  Every trainable program that has a sense of importance all have continuing education requirements that must be met annually. So even if someone gets "certified" they need continuing education to keep it. It is mandatory in the medical field, some business fields, education, etc. Maybe when BSA gets serious about their training they will take this into consideration.

                  In this ever changing world, if one stands still long enough they will in fact fall behind. One has to continue moving forward just to keep up.

                  Stosh

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                  • #40
                    Exactly...No matter what, you are going to take away something new in a training you've had before.

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                    • #41
                      Any training worth it's clipboard is an exchange, a two way learning experience. Yes, the instructors should know the subject and be able to impart it. But the GOOD instructors allow, nay, encourage the participants to share their thoughts and skills and subject knowledge. THAT is "value added", THAT is how you acknowledge and retain the Scouter, by letting them know that they are more than a mere "trained" person, that they could be the NEXT instructor. You make that connection between Fred and Eugene and Mary and Claude. Maybe if Eugene has a problem, he will remember that Fred and Claude had experience in that and may call them for help.
                      Scouting should never be just a top down organization. It should never be just the "instructor" and the lowly "student".
                      Not "need" IOLS? I would have a quizzical look at a fellow that did not want to go camping and meet folks with a common desire to "do Scouting". No one is ever "fully" trained. I can always learn a new technique, a new way to light a fire, a new way to make a tent peg, a different way to look at the forest. Do I teach my way of doing something? Of course, but then I will tell my student to at least try it "my way" , because I know it will work, and do it "his" way later, and I will listen and learn "his" way. Maybe it is better, I will consider it.

                      I do not need an excuse to go camp. I may need my wife's permission, but never an excuse.

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                      • #42
                        Originally posted by SSScout View Post
                        I may need my wife's permission, but never an excuse.
                        Amen Brother

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                        • #43

                          Originally posted by SSScout View Post
                          I do not need an excuse to go camp. I may need my wife's permission, but never an excuse.
                          The only excuse I have to come up with is why she can't go, too. She even checks each time to "make sure I have two-deep", just in case I don't, then she gets to go!

                          I have also been warned that if the activity involves rivers, lakes or even creeks, she will need to go or I can't go either.

                          Stosh

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                          • #44
                            I cannot recall an IOLS course where I didn't learn something valuable from a "participant." Collective experience is a wonderful thing. Attending is an opportunity to share.

                            It is my opinion that IOLS should be a course on how to teach TSF outdoor skills so Scouters can teach the leaders in their troop. (Otherwise, why the "Leader" in the title?) If it were such a course, then someone believing they had mastered outdoor skills might be more open to taking the course.

                            A common observation is that the time allocated allows only a relatively superficial coverage of the topics, even by TSF standards.

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