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  • #16
    IOLS isn't needed for them to recharter. Register them as Unit College Scouter Reserve. They only need Youth protection training, which they can take online. That gives you time to negotiate an exemption with district/council so they can get credit for IOLS next year.

    We have been doing this for the last few year without any problems. They act as an assistant Scoutmaster, but have relaxed training requirements.


    • Sentinel947
      Sentinel947 commented
      Editing a comment
      They can do Assistant Scoutmaster like things, but be wary of having them "act" as an Assistant Scoutmaster. Often enough in many units Assistant Scoutmasters do things in place of the Scoutmaster like Scoutmasters conferences, this should not be delegated to Unit college Scouter Reserve. While I'm thumping the book, Unit College Scouter Reserve members are NOT supposed to sit on Board of Reviews either. The BSA is very vague (which is good) on what UCSR is actually supposed to do. As far as I can tell, they help in the mentoring role that ASM's usually do, without the institutionalized duties of the position of ASM. It's weird step for the youth,, but I'm all for the Scouter Reserve designation if it helps keep older boy role models around the Troop a little bit longer. I stayed registered as UCSR for a year before taking my ASM trainings and becoming an ASM.


  • #17
    I took my IOLS and Scoutmaster Specific when I was 18. I wanted to be involved in the unit I earned my Eagle in. I actually enjoyed the training, and I knew far more than anybody else in the course. Even so, it was a great refresher, helped me make contacts with new leaders around the council, and it "certified" me for if I ever volunteer with another unit. The other slightly unknown option is that they can take YPT and register as "Unit College Scouter Reserve." If they want to stick around, help out, serve as role models, but not take the trainings required for becoming an ASM, that's probably the best move.


    • #18
      Sounds like you want to churn out paper trained leaders...


      • Sentinel947
        Sentinel947 commented
        Editing a comment
        Who is that directed at?

      • duckfoot
        duckfoot commented
        Editing a comment
        Not you Sentinel

    • #19
      OK I think we have done enough piling on. Kathy, I suspect many of us are coming from the perspective having dealt with many adult volunteers that do not want to take the training and having to deal with that in our units. We have a difficult time accepting that from an Eagle.


      • jblake47
        jblake47 commented
        Editing a comment
        I remember my college finance professor telling the class that regardless of what they learn in college, out in the business world it only means you are trainable.


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        I find it humorous, because not long ago old kathy was busy telling us her boys and parents think she is the best scoutmaster ever.

    • #20
      I have mixed emotions on this one. On one hand, I have known folks who have the knowledge, skills, and abilities (KSAs) at the age 18, 19, 20 etc to teach the IOLS skills. Heck I've already used 15 and 16 year olds to help staff the course. And I admit, I was one of those who were bored stiff during SM Fundamentals, except for the paperwork lessons, because I grew up in the program, and I also took the old Brownsea 22 course that focused on scoutcraft and leadership. So on one hand I can understand them not wanting to spend a weekend redoing skills they already have mastered, and probably taught to younger Scouts.

      But on the other hand, I have also seen, and read, about some "Eagles" who couldn't find their way in the woods if the trails were thoroughly marked and they had gps units giving them "Tom Tom" like instructions on how to get to the parking lot.

      My advice would be to see if they could spend a day testing out of the skills. Someone came up with a "syllabus" on how many stations and average length of time at each station that totals 8 hours., including them cooking their own lunch.

      Another option would be to serve on staff. We had one 3 beader FINALLY get "trained" when he taught IOLS, and I have used folks with the KSAs to teach the course if they have not gone through it yet. Let's face it, if you've been to Philmont 3 times, you may have mastered IOLS skills


      • #21
        I won't say I'm the best SM ever, but the scouts I've worked with that have had a few different SM's have said I'm their favorite from that group basement....

        and I would say having boys that have stayed involved past earning Eagle and aging out as well is a sign that we do some good things and have a good group and a lot of fun.

        Having sat through the training I know the boys will be bored out of their minds. I'm not sure if the training is the same from council to council, but when I went through it there was a mix of sitting through lectures, then being told how to do something, and having enough time for 1 member of your patrol to do it. My patrol was a group of experienced campers except for one so we let that scouter do all the attempts and we just made suggestions when they struggled.

        IMO it would benefit those that are clueless and are wanting to learn to not have so many people that know what they are doing but are there to get their paper signed and little trained tab. Think about it. The way it currently is there are tons of people sitting around being told how to tie a knot - or it could be 10 people sitting down working one on one and really learning how to tie the knot.

        The one person in our patrol that was clueless I wouldn't want my kid going camping with and trusting that they knew the skills well enough to teach him. And after I still wouldn't be comfortable with.

        I just wish there was a better way. But there isn't. Eventually maybe they will come up with a better training method. And maybe the boys (guess their men now) will eventually give up a weekend to go sit through a training they think is boring even though they already give up a weekend a month to still go camp. And with their school, jobs, and after school activities just getting them to still come camp every now and then is pretty cool. If they don't want to sit through the training I can understand and will just keep them registered as MBC.


        • Twocubdad
          Twocubdad commented
          Editing a comment
          It's all about attitude. If they go thinking they already know it all and are going to be bored, they will. If they look at as another chance to camp and share a weekend in the woods with new folks of similar interest, they'll have a good time.

          My IOLS patrol was exactly as you describe. Four Eagle Scouts, a recently-retired Army Ranger and a mom who was totally clueless. But we had a blast. The troop guide wandered into our campsite to teach us knots. We spent the time showing each other fancy climbing knots and rope tricks. The guide finally quit trying to teach us anything, mumbled something about us making sure Patty knew her knots (which we did) and left. Did I learn anything? Not from the staff, but picked up a few new things from the other guys and made some friends. I still see Patty at events from time to time.

          This is no different than dealing with older Scouts at a troop meeting or camporee where the program is below their skill level. As a SM, how do you help those older Scouts get something from that program?

        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          Just because they are 18 does not make them men. I know some 40 year old's that are still children.

          I had a blast at IOLS.

          Better training.

          It begins with an adult being completely honest with themselves.

          How many self proclaimed expert outdoors folks have you seen use an entire butane lighter to start a campfire or resort to liquid accelerant. We laugh at the BSA Ax yard but how many adults have ended up at the ER because of a lack of skill that claimed to have mastered?????

          So unless we institute a training program complete with testing and certificates the program has no teeth.

      • #22
        IOLS is not required for any Position unless You want to be Considered "Trained" and Wear the Patch

        Only Required Training is Youth Protection..

        It is just Highly recommended
        Last edited by jpstodwftexas; 12-31-2013, 02:48 AM. Reason: spelling


        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          pretty sure it is required to get a tour permit and be considered an SM or ASM.

          Scoutmasters and assistant Scoutmasters are considered trained when they have completed Youth Protection, Fast Start, This Is Scouting, Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, and Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills.

        • moosetracker
          moosetracker commented
          Editing a comment
          National has not forced mandating position specific training. But, many councils have, National has even recommended that Council do this. Our council has mandated it by this year's rechartering (Dec 2014).. We may have LARGE classes this year, and people upset we aren't offering training every weekend from now on..

          So depends on where Kathy lives if it is mandated or not.
          Last edited by moosetracker; 01-01-2014, 07:43 AM.

      • #23
        Like any training or educational effort, learning about and doing it are only the beginning. If you do not occasionally practice the skill(s), then you will eventually either forget or have a bit of a struggle with it. Physical skills are even more practical hands on doing it. I have tied knots all my life and still struggle with them all that time as well; but if I did not continue to tie them, I would barely be able to start. Mental things are similar; do not do basic math for long periods and you likely will find yourself taking longer to accomplish what once you did at a glance.

        Review is never bad. And helping those less skilled is not only the scout way, but also enhances your own abilities, as well as maybe earns you a friend.


        • #24
          So many things to say on this one ...

          1. Meeting a requirement does not equate to mastery
          2. What is once learned may be forgotten
          3. Using a skill, and teaching it are two different things
          4. Every group needs a leader
          5. The patrol method is based on a group working together to accomplish common goals

          I've seen this before with Eagles, and likely have been guilty a few times myself. This is "fighter pilot complex". My advice, as an Eagle Scout: this as an opportunity to grow into the new role being contemplated; embrace it.
          Last edited by Old_OX_Eagle83; 12-31-2013, 11:24 AM.


          • #25
            Leadership Required for a BSA Tour Permit
            Leadership and Youth Protection Training:
            Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all BSA activities. Coed Venturing crews must have both male and female leaders older than 21 for overnight activities. All registered adults must have completed BSA Youth Protection training. At least one registered adult who has completed BSA Youth Protection training must be present at all events and activities. Youth Protection training is valid for two years from the date completed.

            Where does it say Trained SM or Trained ASM?
            What is everyone saying about Not adding Requirements?

            Required Training
            Activity Standards:
            Where swimming or boating is included in the program, Safe Swim Defense and/or Safety Afloat are to be followed.
            If climbing/rappelling is included, then Climb On Safely must be followed.
            At least one person must be current in CPR/AED from any recognized agency to meet Safety Aloat and Climb On Safely guidelines.

            At least one adult on a pack overnighter must have completed Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO).
            At least one adult must have completed Planning and Preparing for Hazardous Weather training for all tours and activities.
            Recommended Training
            Trek Safely and Basic First Aid are recommended for all tours, and Wilderness First Aid is recommended for all backcountry tours.

            Interestingly anyone else Notice they Don't Say
            At least one adult on a Troop/Crew overnighter must have completed Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skils (IOLS).
            Last edited by jpstodwftexas; 12-31-2013, 07:42 PM.


            • moosetracker
              moosetracker commented
              Editing a comment
              Commented on your above statement. I will restate it here.

              National has not forced mandating position specific training. But, many councils have, National has even recommended that Council do this. Our council has mandated it by this year's rechartering (Dec 2014).. We may have LARGE classes this year, and people upset we aren't offering training every weekend from now on..

              So depends on where Kathy lives if it is mandated or not.

          • #26
            Wondering Why there is Not Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster Specific Training?
            If there is No National what Standards do councils use?
            Is it Once in a Lifetime Train or does it Expire?
            If It expires is it free?


            • Old_OX_Eagle83
              Old_OX_Eagle83 commented
              Editing a comment

              Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster are the same training, it's the same position, just a question of who is on point at any given time. This is position specific training, that has a nationally issues syllabus.

              The training is once a lifetime, although I think the should be an expiration date, as things do change. I took mine in 1986, although it had a different name, and it was substantially different from the current training.

              Fees are a local matter, but typically they cover only the cost of the course.

              National has encouraged councils to adopt a policy of "training first, position second", where you may not register in a position until you're trained for it. Our council has adopted this policy; which I fully support. Can you imagine starting a job without being trained?

          • #27

            Don't know why IOLS and Specific training are required/recommended on tour permit. I am going to assume, and you know what can happen when you assume , that because the scouts should be teaching the scouts these skills, it is assumed that enough folks in the troop have the the skills needed to camp. But again that is an assumption.

            As for training expiration, with the exception of specific trainings that do have expiration dates, i.e. YP, SSD, SA, etc currently, and I stress CURRENTLY, training does not expire. National was thinking about having folks redo basic training every time it changes. So the 20 year SM who has been there, done that, has the SM Key, got the three beads woggle and necker, ad nauseum, would be "untrained" until they redid their basic training with the most current version. There was a lot of flack on facebook when that was proposed. Currently it is up to the local training folks as to whether to accept the older training or not.


            • #28
              Again Being Trained, IOLS is not recommended or required to pull a tour permit..Tour permits can be pulled by any Two Leaders meeting the Following Stated Rules
              Boy Scouts of America policy requires at least two adult leaders on all BSA activities. Coed Venturing crews must have both male and female leaders older than 21 for overnight activities. All registered adults must have completed BSA Youth Protection training. At least one registered adult who has completed BSA Youth Protection training must be present at all events and activities. Youth Protection training is valid for two years from the date completed.

              Going to a Museum, Radio Station, or even a Zoo require a Tour Permit in most cases...Two Committee Members can pull the permit


              • #29
                I did IOLS last year My patrol leader was an 18 year old Eagle. He had no idea what a Patrol Leaders job was or how to do it. I ended up taking over for him. One of the competitions was knot tying relay race s. This Eagle scout said he would tie the square knot since it was the only Knot he knew. He tied it wrong costing us the race.

                If a boy scout has a part time job as a chef he still has to earn the cooking merit badge. How about a boy scout who is elected to his town council or works as a lifeguard, or at a car dealership. They still have to EARN CITIZENSHIP IN THE COMMUNITY, LIFESAVING, AND SALESMANSHIP they aren't just given to these boys. As adult leaders why do we think things should be given to us for past accomplishments.

                A scout is obedient. If he needs IOLS for the position take IOLS.


                • Sentinel947
                  Sentinel947 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  When I was an 18 year old Eagle, I took IOLs. It was a joke because my troop had me well prepared in my Scouting skills. But I didn't complain because it's a requirement and needed to be done.

                  Eagles should have those skills and it should be easy for them to pass IOLs. They don't need an exemption.

              • #30
                Again I have mixed emotions.

                I took the old SM Fundamentals as an 19 y.o. Eagle. Having been in a 'hiking and camping troop" that was youth run, going through Brownsea 22, and also a 64 mile canoe trip in the Canadian Wilderness, the outdoor portion of the course was not a challenge. I did it becasue it was needed. But in all honesty it was a waste of time.

                But, as we all have seen and heard, there are Eagles out there who I wouldn't trust in the outdoors. So I like the idea of the skill testing that national allows, i.e. show all of the the skills and get credit for the course. But I also like how if you cannot do the skills, you gotta take the course.

                A few comments that are ancillaries to this conversation.

                1) Does anyone else who have taught IOLS think the syllabus promotes the 'One and Done" mentality?

                2) Does anyone else see a correlation between Eagles who can not do basic outdoor skills and those who either earned their Eagle in from 1972 - 1979 time frame ( when Improved Scouting Program was around and camping was not required) or are in troops whose leaders were involved in Scouting only during this timeframe until now? I just realized that a troop that is having major challenges in their ouotdoor program right now also has an SM who got his Eagle under the Improved Scouting Program.