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  • #76
    I'm trying figure out how the den of wolves lead themselves while adults mentor and resource.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by TAHAWK View Post
      As for leader vs. team, the course is addressed to adults. The youth are the team. The end is the team leading themselves while the adult is a mentor and resource. In adult training, is that a problem in your view and, if so, why? Tell me more.
      I don't have a problem with the course, but you kind of made my point by setting a Boy Scout expectation in a course that includes Cub Scout leaders. The 21WB course was design to teach adults how to understand vision and mission and to manage the "unit" adult team toward those goals. But when the staff has wrong expectations and passes those expectations to the participants, the course can produce mixed results. And that leads to a undeserved reputation.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Eagledad View Post
        I'm trying figure out how the den of wolves lead themselves while adults mentor and resource.
        I could only guess what the "official" response would be. Many of the lessons are applicable to adults leading adults if mostly, but not entirely in the team context. (Communication; conflict management, 'planning, and others apply outside the strictly "team development" context.)

        Are you going to discuss Scouting as to the "leadership" team development point that you raised? It was "group" in the 60's - 80's. Is that so very different from "teams" so that talking of teams means it's not leadership training?

        As addressed to management employees, Blanchard seemed to think he was, in pertinent part, teaching leaders how to adjust their leadership style to the needs of the team they were leading - "situational leadership." - more or less control and input as the team needs more of less to succeed. That was different in detail from the discussions in the 60's and 70's about leadership "style: but not different in kind.

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        • #79
          My interaction with folks who have taken both their basic training and WB is not good. They talk a good game but lack the drive to see it through. My best Scouters are those who were never scouts, but have taken the training for their position. The worst ones are former Eagles who have their basic training and WB. Not an good advertisement for the program in my area. WB has become a standing joke in my area among Scouters.

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          • #80
            I was asked by my ASM if I would be interested in being on WB staff in the next session. I told her (Silver Beaver awardee/district commissioner) that I couldn't because I was WB trained prior to 2000. It's my ace-in-the-hole of getting out of such things. She said she would work on that. I hope she's not successful.

            By the way, she asked to be my ASM because of how I am running my troop as boy-led, patrol-method and wants to know more about how that works. One would think that as WB trained, Silver Beaver awardee, district commissioner, former SM, she would know all about it. Obviously not.

            Stosh

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            • #81
              Originally posted by mozartbrau View Post
              My interaction with folks who have taken both their basic training and WB is not good. They talk a good game but lack the drive to see it through. My best Scouters are those who were never scouts, but have taken the training for their position. The worst ones are former Eagles who have their basic training and WB. Not an good advertisement for the program in my area. WB has become a standing joke in my area among Scouters.
              Have you tried to figure out why that is? Those with no background in Scouting who work for you are just the ones you are looking for?

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
                I have taken powder horn.....It was little more than how to backpack, they brought in the local outdoor shop owner to talk about gear.

                It was winter, so we kayaked in an indoor pool same pool snokeled.


                The entire course could have been handled by a 4 page booklet with a list of resources.
                totally different from the Powder Horn training that I am signed up for in the fall. It is held at large council campground and has hands on experience in way more activities that you described. Sounds like they don't have a good standard for the course.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by mozartbrau View Post
                  My interaction with folks who have taken both their basic training and WB is not good. They talk a good game but lack the drive to see it through. My best Scouters are those who were never scouts, but have taken the training for their position. The worst ones are former Eagles who have their basic training and WB. Not an good advertisement for the program in my area. WB has become a standing joke in my area among Scouters.
                  You have eagles who get trained?
                  It took my council requiring training for recharter to get the eagles in my unit to training, you know, because 6 months as the troop scribe and learning the square lashing qualifies people to run scout troops.
                  Last edited by Scouter99; 04-19-2014, 10:51 PM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Scouter99 View Post

                    You have eagles who get trained?
                    It took my council requiring training for recharter to get the eagles in my unit to training, you know, because 6 months as the troop scribe and learning the square lashing qualifies people to run scout troops.
                    So you expect your newly aged out 18 year old Eagles to run your Troop? Isn't that your job? =P

                    When I aged out and decided I wanted to be involved with my Troop during college, I got my butt to training, but that hasn't been feasible for most of my peers. So when I became an ASM, they became College Reserve.

                    I think we need to judge whether Scouters are capable of being good Scoutmasters on an individual basis. Having an Adult Eagle who had a good Scouting experience can give them some good insight into things. Having an Adult Eagle from a crappy troop can give you an adult who has no idea what's going on. With Adults with no Scouting they can get lost in the training, or think they don't need it. Or they can go to training and be solid. I've seen both. I'm blessed to have a Troop that had excellent Adults, both Eagles and adults with no prior experience.
                    Last edited by Sentinel947; 04-19-2014, 11:42 PM. Reason: Because the English language doesn't deserve to be butchered in such a way.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by TAHAWK View Post
                      Have you tried to figure out why that is? Those with no background in Scouting who work for you are just the ones you are looking for?
                      In my experience, the former Eagles are full of themselves but are too absorbed in their jobs to put that same effort in to their family or scouting. Those who were never scouts seem genuinely interested in learning all they can and rolling up their sleeves and getting involved. Those with WB are essentially like my Eagle ASMs, but are worse...they go for adult accolades like knots and could not be bothered to pitch in and help train our youth. I'll take 1 new dad never having been in scouting over 10 Eagle, WB-trained dads any day...twice on camp out Sunday.

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                      • #86
                        In my experience, dads who never made eagle but were Life or Star scouts have proven the best SMs. But still better were those who were never scouts. Not all, but the majority have been top shelf.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Sentinel947 View Post
                          So you expect your newly aged out 18 year old Eagles to run your Troop? Isn't that your job? =P
                          No, I don't. I expect 18-yr-old Eagles to piss off to college and not come back because there's a toxic mindset around what earning Eagle means. A guy like you is the exception in my long tenure. I expect adult/dad Eagles to be as useless as anyone else.

                          Originally posted by mozartbrau View Post
                          In my experience, the former Eagles are full of themselves but are too absorbed in their jobs to put that same effort in to their family or scouting. Those who were never scouts seem genuinely interested in learning all they can and rolling up their sleeves and getting involved. Those with WB are essentially like my Eagle ASMs, but are worse...they go for adult accolades like knots and could not be bothered to pitch in and help train our youth. I'll take 1 new dad never having been in scouting over 10 Eagle, WB-trained dads any day...twice on camp out Sunday.
                          Exactly. The vast majority of ASM Eagles I've encountered want to rest on their laurels. "What do you mean get trained? I'm an ~Eagle Scout~" Some are dads who earned Eagle from wherever they came from, a very, very, extremely rare few are from our troop (which is also why Eagles fail to impress, I've seen 2 from our troop come back).

                          The deification of Eagles makes a lot of guys who believe the hype about themselves.

                          The deification of 21st Century Wood Badge makes a lot of guys who think pieces of paper = mastery and believe the hype about themselves.
                          Last edited by Scouter99; 04-21-2014, 10:36 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by mozartbrau View Post
                            In my experience, dads who never made eagle but were Life or Star scouts have proven the best SMs. But still better were those who were never scouts. Not all, but the majority have been top shelf.
                            For the record, I don't agree with this cynical statement at all. The program is losing the traditional outdoor program that gives it its noble romantic persona of boys learning independence by leaning skills to survive in the wilderness because there are no adults with the experience to know what a boy wants and needs from a traditional program.

                            However, there is irony in mozaetbraus statement because the first WB course was abandoned and changed for the present WB course as a result of the membership policy change to accept women adult leaders. Accepting women shifted the balance of adult leaders with a youth scouting experience to a majority of adults without a youth scouting experience running the programs. In my many years of helping struggling troops, units with adults who had a youth scouting experience perform far better than troops with adults who only know what they get from training.

                            Barry

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Eagledad View Post

                              For the record, I don't agree with this cynical statement at all. The program is losing the traditional outdoor program that gives it its noble romantic persona of boys learning independence by leaning skills to survive in the wilderness because there are no adults with the experience to know what a boy wants and needs from a traditional program.

                              However, there is irony in mozaetbraus statement because the first WB course was abandoned and changed for the present WB course as a result of the membership policy change to accept women adult leaders. Accepting women shifted the balance of adult leaders with a youth scouting experience to a majority of adults without a youth scouting experience running the programs. In my many years of helping struggling troops, units with adults who had a youth scouting experience perform far better than troops with adults who only know what they get from training.

                              Barry

                              Ironically, from what I can tell, the shift in Woodbadge probably worsened the problem. If anything, we would be more in a need for advanced outdoor skill training for our leaders than in the past.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Eagledad View Post

                                For the record, I don't agree with this cynical statement at all. The program is losing the traditional outdoor program that gives it its noble romantic persona of boys learning independence by leaning skills to survive in the wilderness because there are no adults with the experience to know what a boy wants and needs from a traditional program.

                                However, there is irony in mozaetbraus statement because the first WB course was abandoned and changed for the present WB course as a result of the membership policy change to accept women adult leaders. Accepting women shifted the balance of adult leaders with a youth scouting experience to a majority of adults without a youth scouting experience running the programs. In my many years of helping struggling troops, units with adults who had a youth scouting experience perform far better than troops with adults who only know what they get from training.

                                Barry
                                For what it's worth, the first Wood Badge Course (all Scoutcraft 1948-72) was replaced by the second Wood Badge Course (Leadership Skills and more or less Scoutcraft 1972-2002) which was replaced by the third Wood Badge Course (formerly "21st Century). "Displaced" is probably more accurate, given the tremendous differences.

                                In our area (three councils) we have very few women as commissioned Scouters in troops - fewer than when women were first allowed in over twenty years ago. My district had seven female SM's in 1990 and none today. Female adults are more common in Venturing as a %, but Venturing is barely alive here.

                                There is less and less interest in many traditional Scoutcraft skills. Yet, more people than ever before go backpacking and canoeing in the wilderness. Is their outdoor knowledge less or different? "Survival" books, articles, websites, and TV programs abound, although often disseminating inaccurate or even dangerous information.

                                I have experienced the whole range with Eagles, from zero help to Scouters-for-life. Even Eagle mills have produced dedicated and active Scouters. Our most famous Knot Collector (custom shirts with lowered pockets for more rows) is an "Eagle," but the runner-up in that contest is not.

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