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  • #31
    I had a similar "beads" conversation just this past weekend with a long time WB staffer that's been after me to take the course. When I said I wasn't interested in tickets (I already give as much as possible to the troop) and I don't have the time for tickets he explained that's what I need to do to get my beads. He couln't quite grasp the concept that in my mind, adult awards in a youth organization is at the bottom of my important list, being better at working with kids is at the top.

    Beading awards or any adult awards have no place in functions intended for kids.

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    • #32
      GO,
      WB is more than beads, songs, and tickets. It's about learning leadership and management skills and knowledge and applying them in a controlled aspect. I don't know your background so I can tell you what you'll get from WB. I have over 20 years experience in the military and have been through numerous DoD leadership/management courses. Still, what I learned and did at WB made me a better leader and my packs better organizations. As such I am able to provide a better program to the scouts. It wasn't so much that what they taught was new to me (although for some it was the first experience with these concepts), but I would not have done the ticket project if it wasn't for WB. I would have just continued to do things the pack always did it. What the WB tickets made me do was to change and improve the what we did to change our pack into a better organization. For those who say they and their units got nothing from WB, I got to think they wasted a great opportunity.

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      • #33
        I'm the fall NYLT Course Director for our council. We do one of our courses over fall break and split it into two weekends. The first which was last weekend was Thursday thru Sunday. The second weekend will be this coming Saturday and Sunday. I'm just happy that scouters are not as negative about the NYLT course and awards as they are about WB....Kudu excluded of course.

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        • #34
          Ohana

          You need to understand that all woodbadge courses are not created equal.....

          A poor patrol will also ruin the course.....


          My course experience was horrible and after 2 years I think I have a grasp of the courses failures.

          1. Never allow a parent to be on staff with a child in the course. I got in the middle of some mother son power struggle.....As patrol leader I was called out to deal with misbehaving 18 year old scout son. Same son had his ticket dictated to him at the last minute by a staff member.

          2. While diversity is great in the patrol, put like minded or at least geographically folks together in the same patrol. The hilljacks that don't have cellphones or computers don't belong in patrols with folks that do......They also don't answer messages or participate in patrol meetings.

          3. Staff grab ass. My staff spent hours screwing around at gilwell. The inside jokes and the announcement song over and over and over again....complete with the second verse. Take charge for cryin out loud, fixed for OGE, sake.

          4. The complete failure of the CD, TG and Ticket councilor, who I was randomly assigned, to interact with me and get my ticket signed off and never Actually receive my beads after finishing my ticket.

          5. Do not allow District or Council IOLS course Directors to staff the course. The quality of my WB patrol expereince was negatively impacted by the IOLS course directors holding court in their camp site and all of the individual course staff left our patrol site to go be with their IOLS director and staff....

          For the average cube dweller a waste of time.....It was a huge waste of time. But I am an Eagle scout, been to Philmont, jambo and Brown Sea as a youth......

          and OH.....My Ticket was things I was going to do anyway......If yours was stuff you wouldn't have done then I think you missed the mark.
          (This message has been edited by Basementdweller)

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          • #35
            Thank You BD, good information for future courses and how not to run them (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

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            • #36
              I forgot to mention the stuff animal kidnapping.......


              Really?????

              Your announcing it and making threats?????


              Oh the bad memories continue......


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              • #37
                Ohanadad, I'm not against WB at all and a lot of units benefits from some of the folks that sacrifice their personal time go through the course. Even though I practice leadership for a living, I have to assume I would get something out of it and possibly make me a better leader. My point from my previous post is the beads, stuffed animals, songs, skits, special neckerchiefs, whatever... shouldn't be what's important. Recognizing adults for their personal accomplishments has no place at functions intended for the youth we serve. If you want to present awards to adults, great but do it at an event intended for that purpose.

                SR540, NYLT and WB are apples and oranges. NYLT is all about youth so hence the adult support. I believe a lot of the negativity toward WB comes from some of the folks that choose to boldly wear their WB success on their chests. I don't see this as a common problem but it's the "one bad apple spoils the bunch" thing. I also believe WB would be better off if they toned it down a bit and save the traditions and advertisements to adult functions. As an example; so all members of a troop, adults included wear the same uniform just as a sports team would. Why is it acceptable for a WB grad to wear the WB neckerchief instead of the troop neckerchief at troop/pack functions? I've know a well respected and skilled SM for quite a few years. Up until recently, I didn't know he was a WBer. He's one of those guys that dont need to tell anyone how good he is... he demonstrates how good he is.

                If the units and districts would use some common sense and find the appropriate times to pat adults on the back, then the things that were described in the original post wouldn't happen.

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                • #38
                  BD -- great post. A rational, studied report of the difficulities you had with WB. I knew you could do it. Your post should be required reading at every course director conference. (Of course, for the CDs who run courses like that, they won't think you're talking about them anyway.)

                  And while I'm posting, I'll reiterate my original point: Like many character issues, asking the Scout to sit through their Scoutmaster's or Den Leader's beading ceremony isn't about the old farts getting the beads. It IS about the boys. Those boys need to understand that ol' Mr. Grouche doesn't just show up Saturday's and drink coffee. They need to understand that Mr. Grouche has a passion for Scouting, that he puts considerable time and effort into it (beyond the already considerable time they see him) and that he really cares about the program. If they understand that, maybe they develop an appreciation for what he does and maybe his example of servant leadership takes on a little bit more significance for those boys. No, no 11-y.o. is ever going to connect all those dots, but one day he may.

                  Part of being a servant leader is humility. That's a good thing. But another part of what we do is to lead by example. For that example to be effective with the boys, it needs to be visible to them. I'm not much on Bible quotations but I believe there is a pertinent verse about hiding your light under a basket.

                  Musta been about 1966 or 67 my Den Chief, Scott, earned his Eagle. Our Den Mothers (one of whom was my mom) hauled the entire den out to his Court of Honor. Back in the day, COHs were held at the district level. Every rank, merit badge and recruiter strip earned in the district was presented. I went on for hours and was so big it was held in the high school football stadium. I think Scott was one of maybe 8 or 10 Eagles. But it made a big impression on me -- so much so that 45 years later I can still see our whole den sitting on one row, maybe four or five rows from the front. Must have impressed the other guys, too. Of those 11 Cubs in that den, 8 are Eagle Scouts.

                  You never know who is watching and remembering....

                  Keep the big picture in mind. It's got nothing to do with the beads.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Excellent post Twocubdad! Each time I put on my beads, I think of the man who was my basball coack in first grade, Cubmaster and youth sponsor of my church youth group when I was a kid. He was a firefighter and a servant leader in his community and church. My regret was that I dropped out at Webelos and wasnt part of his Boy Scout troop. I still see him at church. It wasn't until I was an adult that I appreciated all he did for us kids and it wasn't until I went thru WB until I realized that I was following in his footsteps and making a difference in boy's lives like he had in mine. It isn't about the beads, it's about the heart of a person and that should always be recognized.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      BD said, "and OH.....My Ticket was things I was going to do anyway......If yours was stuff you wouldn't have done then I think you missed the mark."

                      Yes, BD, you're right, I would have missed the mark...if I didn't go to WB.

                      Before WB, I was fat, dumb, and happy being a DL that followed the BSA new delivery plans. Being a new leader, isn't that what you're supposed to do? The pack was fat, dumb, and happy doing things the way we always did...even at the expense of our parents since we brute forced our way through things instead of planning properly. According to the Quality Unit measures, we did great, why change?

                      while at WB, I saw how if we did planning better and stop doing the same things over and over, we wouldn't burn out the good parents and maybe get other parents more involved. And you know what? I was right. Things got better and the processes/products from my tickets are still being used.

                      Sorry that you had such a dysfunctional patrol/course/WB experience/etc. but I had the opposite experience, so don't hold it against me if I don't join the WB bashing and instead promote it where I can.

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                      • #41
                        Singing "Announcements?" There's no place for it in WB or NYLT.
                        Sounds like yet another nail in the coffin of Basement's course. It's always sounded to me as though the staff members were pretty much into themselves. If the course director allowed the puffed egos, the inside jokes, and the announcement song, then he/she was a lousy course director. That kind of culture takes a long time to get rid of, because the staff (and participants) think it's supposed to be that way. They need to clean house.
                        BDPT00

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                        • #42
                          Ok, so Mea culpa, my beading ceremony was at a Council Camperall at the Saturday firebowl. Along with three other WBers the ceremony was the first thing out of the blocks. Standing there I was pretty proud of myself and as the ceremony wore on, and it DID wear on, I could see the scouts and scouters starting to lose interest as their bodies began to list to one side or another.

                          Seems the lessons we learned in the course about communication don't translate to the ceremonies. Something about knowing your audience or some such nonsense. Now I just feel plain embarrassed to have taken so much of the scout's time that evening. I've been to three or four of these things since joining the WB club and the ceremony never changes. Don't get me wrong, most people who take the course work hard to finish and the deserve some recognition and , yes, the scouts need to be made aware of it. Just tailor your message so it has some sort of impact and meaning for both the sender AND the receiver.

                          Oh, and the singing of Gilwell, unless you are in a room full of WBers with very few other non-believers just don't do it. Nobody cares, REALLY, NOBODY CARES!

                          Respectfully,
                          Ken
                          I used to be a bear, and apparently a very cranky one.................

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Ok, so Mea culpa, my beading ceremony was at a Council Camperall at the Saturday firebowl. Along with three other WBers the ceremony was the first thing out of the blocks. Standing there I was pretty proud of myself and as the ceremony wore on, and it DID wear on, I could see the scouts and scouters starting to lose interest as their bodies began to list to one side or another.

                            Seems the lessons we learned in the course about communication don't translate to the ceremonies. Something about knowing your audience or some such nonsense. Now I just feel plain embarrassed to have taken so much of the scout's time that evening. I've been to three or four of these things since joining the WB club and the ceremony never changes. Don't get me wrong, most people who take the course work hard to finish and the deserve some recognition and , yes, the scouts need to be made aware of it. Just tailor your message so it has some sort of impact and meaning for both the sender AND the receiver.

                            Oh, and the singing of Gilwell, unless you are in a room full of WBers with very few other non-believers just don't do it. Nobody cares, REALLY, NOBODY CARES!

                            Respectfully,
                            Ken
                            I used to be a bear, and apparently a very cranky one.................

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              There's nothing wrong with singing announcements at WB or NYLT.

                              When I attended WB, I was a pretty green Cub Leader. The idea of signing announcements or being goofy in front of the boys in my pack was pretty uncomfortable. During the course, I watched a bunch of pretty experienced Scouters doing some goofy things. In it's own way, it helped me to understand that being goofy with kids is really OK. If all we'd done was had a bunch of serious meetings, then I'd have missed that example.

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                              • #45
                                Your Right Norm....Nobody cares......

                                I am not sure they should.

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