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Putting Patrol method in IOLS Test-out..

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  • #31
    Why do you say "My committee is planning on setting up".. Except for the addition of something with patrol method attached to it.. This test checklist has been created by National. So if you dislike the test-out, your complaint is with National.. As far as "my committee" I only have a committee from our council which comprises the council Training Chair and all the other district training chairs who are not for the test out.. My gut feeling is that I can compromise and add things like a sign-off of 1 or 2 nights that participant slept in a tent, and something to do with the patrol method.. I will get new objections.. They just don't want the test-out..

    You want to train your own people.. But are against the "test-out" therefore, you must be in favor of them going to the "butt credit" course.. Because those will be your two options to get them through the required course, that will still be required after they go through your course. It is weird because on other threads you were very excited about the test-out.. What do you think the test-out was?? People just asking you if you know how to do A,B,C and you just answering "Yes"..

    I am just taking the checklist from National and National's rule that it must be "demonstrated" plus adding Patrol method to that checklist and trying to figure out how to organize the course so that it is doable & successful..

    I agree. I will need more people for this course then the tradional IOLS, at least until it goes down to a trickle of a few participants each year who can do the "test-out" and want to.. I am counting on the fact that my district is excited about it, and WANT this course, and are willing to help me get it up and running by offering to be testers so that their buddy in their troop can get through it.

    I will have my husband & son go through the dry run.. They are good at scouting but not backwoodsmen.. If they can't do it, then it will be too hard.. But I don't see them having a issue with it.. I have already stated those who go in green to an IOLS, will not come out from IOLS with the ability to do the test out.. I don't think it is totally a butt course.. They are not just lectured, they do work with the map & compass and get instruction on it, they do get practice with tieing knots, they do get to do camp cooking.. I think my instructors are good.. But it is the amount of info you need to get through and the tight time.. You just throw stuff at them non-stop, and overwhelm them so all they can do is remember a small amount of what was thrown at them.

    So "Yes" to test-out you need to know better then someone totally green who took IOLS.. But you should not need to know much more than a first class scout that's got good solid training through the ranks, and is confident in his knowledge.. I expect no eagle scout who takes the test-out at 18 or 19 to fail this test-out course.. An Eagle scout who has been away from troop activity for 10 or more years, may.. If we expect this level of skill of our First class scouts why is this an unreasonable level to expect from people who say they know their scoutcraft enough that they don't need the course and wish to test out?? If they are not confident in their skills, then they should take the IOLS course.

    Once we only have a trickle of people each year able to "test-out" we will not need so many to be on staff..


    • #32
      In ref to WB v. IOLS v. SMF.

      I admit I did not go through WB or WB21C. BUT I have been told that both the Brownsea 22 course, as well as the JLTC I staffed, mirrored the old WB courses. If that is the case then here is my analysis.

      SMF when I went through it was a month long course. You had a Saturday class, a Weeknite "model troop meeting", and a 3 day (friday nite - sunday noon) campout.

      The Sat. class covered what is today This Is Scouting and some SM Spec stuff.

      The Weeknite was striclty SM Spec material today.

      The campout covered the material covered by IOLS today.

      The purpsoe was to give you the basics, as you were not expected to become a scout skills master at the end of the course.

      WB was different in that it was a weeklong course, focused on scoutcraft skills and a few other topics. Again if WB mirrored what I wne through and taught there was a high dose of scoutrcraft with some classes: mentoring, counseling, representing the group, etc.

      By the end of the week you were expected to be a scoutcraft master, being able to build a catapult with lashings, able to create a survival shelter, that in my case, able to withstand the outerbands of a hurricane, able to create compass courses and run them during day and nite, etc.


      • #33
        Many people talk about IOLS as 2 weekends
        The course I just finished was all day Saturday one weekend, then Friday night-Saturday evening two weekends later.

        When Required training hits, they will only have one year from when the register to train (unless they register for a committee position for a year or two and still go on outings.) Therefore asking them for 10 camping nights over a 2 year period would make the test-out basically impossible to accomplish, they only would have 1 year to do 10 camping nights..
        Well, 10 was just a number, you could set it at whatever level you think is appropriate to demonstrate outdoor experience. If it was 1 night it would equal what doing the "butt check" version of the course offered.

        Possibly some paper or verbal tests may work, I guess I may be hooked on the word "demonstrate" a little too much..
        And that's the conundrum with the "Patrol Method" requirement anyway. What does "demonstrate" mean in that context? I don't think pitching tents and cooking together demonstrates the PM at the level that a SM should understand it. That's like someone passing a driver's test by riding in a car driven by someone else.

        The big thing with Training groups accepting and using the test-out option fairly to get volunteers through is the fact you are showing volunteers you are working with them and for them to help them get through the required training. If you just play a power trip of "you must come to my class or else you don't know squat, because I know far more then you".. type of game with eagle scouts and scoutmaster of 5 to 20+ years, you set up an "us" vs "them" and you don't have a working relationship. Now try asking them to help staff your trainings.. You will get little help from them..
        Bingo! I think National has already created something of an "us" vs "them" with this new requirement. I enjoyed my IOLS class, and the overall experience was good, but it didn't make me a better outdoorsman. The other thing to think about is how effective the overall volunteer hours in your council are being used. Every volunteer who goes through IOLS without needing it just spent 2+ "volunteer days" doing something other than working with kids. Every volunteer instructor who teaches a class to people who don't need it just spent his or her "volunteer time" doing something that didn't help kids. The classic example from the class I just finished was the Powderhorn instructor/long-time Venture leader who took the IOLS course with me. She couldn've spent those two + days more productively.

        "Indulging bureaucrats in power struggles" is not one of the stated aims or methods of Scouting! Neither is "training adults." It's supposed to be about the kids, and IOLS for people who already know the skills just takes away from what we can do for the kids. Ask your council how they'd feel if a troop had to cancel an outing because the only available adult leaders had to take IOLS that weekend, and didn't really need it?

        In fact, for what it's worth, I'd encourage you to take a firm stand against the power trippers - we're supposed to be teaching leadership to the boys, and leadership requires taking stands against bureaucratic nonsense. A reasonable test-out option for experienced poeple is clearly the right thing to do here. It saves their time and the trainer's time. Maybe the boys won't see you modelling good leadership by doing that, but the adults who work with the boys might, and maybe it will inspire them to model the same good leadership skills.

        Good luck!


        • #34
          If it was 1 night it would equal what doing the "butt check" version of the course offered.

          But the only reason I am adding it in the first place is because it is one of the reasons the other Training Chairs & my district can complain about why the ITOLS is not acceptable, they have a tent over nighter & the ITOLS does not. If I need to add something so that it is comparable to the IOLS.. Then I don't need to up the stakes, just make it comparable to..

          I don't think pitching tents and cooking together demonstrates the PM at the level that a SM should understand it.

          Again the patrol method is not by design in the ITOLS but it is one of the complaints as to why the ITOLS is not a valid equal to the IOLS.. Therefore if I have to add it in to make people happy, I don't need to have them demonstrate any more then how it is taught in an IOLS course.. So how do they teach you PM in IOLS? They have you form a patrol and cook together & put together a skit for the campfire program etc.. So how will you need to demonstrate you are able to work in a patrol? Group together pitch your tent as a patrol unit (I doubt I will have enough space for the 300ft, so it will be patrols in squishy campsite.. and do something as a Patrol, and give some patrol spirit.. It may not be what is full blown Patrol Method, but it will emulate what is shown to you in the training courses..

          To add these pieces into the course for me is trying to make compromises to get it approved in the Council.. Not to add it in because I want to make the ITOLS longer & harder or more complicated.. Therefore equal to what is in the current IOLS course is what I am striving for.


          • #35
            moosetracker writes:

            Group together pitch your tent as a patrol unit (I doubt I will have enough space for the 300ft, so it will be patrols in squishy campsite.. and do something as a Patrol, and give some patrol spirit.. It may not be what is full blown Patrol Method, but it will emulate what is shown to you in the training courses..

            Patrols in a squishy campsite is the Troop Method, not the Patrol Method, no matter how many people agree with you that it is "just not practical at this time."

            When everyone tells you that a weekend of experience won't make any difference in the participants' understanding of the Patrol Method, they are dead wrong.

            When they tell you that you can cover the Patrol Method by merely mentioning Baden-Powell's 300 foot rule and how adults should interact with the Scouts, they are dead wrong.

            When they tell you that every adult understands the Patrol Method because its just like a office work group, except with a lame Patrol Flag, and a lame Patrol Cheer, and lame manufactured Patrol Spirit, they are dead wrong.

            Red-blooded American boys want Adventure, not more of that lame Cub Scout crap.

            "Real" Patrol Spirit comes from boys organizing their own Patrol Hike, and pulling it off without adults telling them how to do it. That is "Real" Patrol Spirit. That is Adventure.

            Spacing your Patrols 300 feet apart when camping as a Troop is actually preparation for the "Real" thing (Patrol Hikes and Patrol Overnights). That's right: What the BSA once called a "Real" Patrol.

            When as the course director you make up excuses for squishing the participants together into the Troop Method, you are modeling the behavior they are likely to imitate for the rest of their tenure as volunteers: Never once meeting Baden-Powell's minimum standard (MINIMUM STANDARD!). The reason? They have never actually experienced it themselves: At best only heard it mentioned once at training.

            Actions speak louder than words.

            Yours at 300 feet,



            • #36
              could you post a link to IOLS curiosity is running working.

              I spoke with our scout master about letting the patrols hike on their own. he looked at me sideways like I was crazy. interesting to say the least.


              • #37

                IOLS is suppose to cover the T-2-1 Skills. the syllabus can be found at this website


                Hope it helps.


                That was one thing I liked about the old SMF course, you formed a patrol that first all day Saturday session and were with that patrol for the weeknite troop meeting and the weekend campign trip. Oh forgot to add you were suppose to have a patrol meeting at some point to determine basic patrol duties, i.e. tent buddies, duty rooster, etc. Only time we did troop activity, if memory serves, was Saturday lunch (didn't want to take time away from the lessons in teh middle of the day so it was foil cooking) campfire, and Scout's Own on Sunday. We had enough staff that each staffer had their own station, and patrols hiked to the various stations. Wasn't a long hike as we were at a local state park, but we were far enough away as to not interfere with other classes.


                • #38
                  OK Kudu... If we have the land for it I will do the 300 ft.. But.. Test out is not going to be something like full blown IOLS, with a year long planning to it.. The location will be out side a units meeting place. If I have one or two patrols, I will be abel to do it. I am guessing my first run of this may be with a very large turn out, simply due to the demand for it, and no one in our council doing it.. Also remember I am not teaching, I am seeing what they KNOW.. So the question is, if we don't have the space to push them out 300ft, who will say something to ME???

                  You will be happy with the location for my IOLS campsite though.. The IOLS patrol was 1 mile all alone on a ski slope.. The rest of the district camporee troops were pressed in like sardines some place else.. So they got way more then their 300 feet... So there.. But seriously I tried a year in advance for our council camp with a choice of about 6 weekend dates. They were booked to the hilt all 6 weekends the whole month of Sept through Oct 15th , and could not give me anything, let alone 3 or 4 different sites to spread patrols out on. I ended up at with a campsite at a fish & game place for next Fall, and have no idea if it is one small campsite or I would have the land for it. When you are looking for lodgings for FREE, beggers really can't be choosers..

                  Question about the Patrols hiking or camping on their own. How do you get the tour Permit? We have done patrol outings, but still alway had the adult leadership with them. The tour Permit seems to require it.

                  Basement, I have a pdf I can send you with the test-out version, if that's what you are looking for. But the private message will not let me send attachments.. If that's what you want PM me with your email, and I can send you the pdf file. (Unless there is some other way I can post it, that I don't know about.)


                  • #39
                    Now the test out has gone to multiple days with interim patrol meetings??????

                    sounds like a regular old IOLS course. Just sayin that's all.


                    • #40
                      Where did you see that?? I don't see where I indicated that..Any way, if I did.. It would be because, I am looking at holding 2 courses this Spring. That would be 2 days (if they were both Saturday). Then one course is being held on weeknights for people who work weekends and can not make a Saturday. I am anticipating that may take 2 nights if I start at 7pm, I don't think I could do it in 3 hours, and would not want to run past 10pm.. So if I indicated 3 days it is because I am looking a 3 days. 1 day for a Saturday program 2 nights for a seprate course run an weekday evenings.

                      I am "hoping" the test out will be no more then 4 to 5 hours. But I have nothing to compare it to so that's a guess.


                      • #41
                        Kudu, I mostly agree with you on what the Patrol Method is, I just don't think having a bunch of Scoutmasters forming an ad hoc Patrol for the weekend does much to teach it.

                        It's one thing for a group of 30 and 40 year olds to trust each other planning an overnight. It's another for a 40 year old Scoutmaster to trust a 14 year old Patrol Leader to do the same. I wasn't too worried about the Grubmaster in our IOLS patrol, he'd cooked over a camp stove often enough and knew his way around a grocery store. But if he did screw up, myself and a few other adults (who's mothers would not complain to me about anything that went wrong) would miss a couple of meals. Trusting him to get it right wasn't the same as trusting 14-year old Billy to get it right.

                        You're right that answering a written test on "300 feet" isn't really it either. Frankly, I don't know if you can "teach the Patrol Method" in a weekend. Seems to me it's more of a mindset, along with some strategies for coping with the inevitable problems (like the worried parents who aren't sure about this boy-led thing, what if Billy get's hungry?).

                        I dunno, it's important, I just don't know how you teach it, let alone test it.

                        Kudu, you're the biggest advocate for the Patrol Method around here, if National asked you to design the new SM training, how would you incorporate instruction on using the Patrol Method into the course? Constraints of course include that there has to be a reasonable limit to the time involved. Then, how would you "test out" experienced SMs?


                        • #42
                          Moosetracker, a THREE hour test that sampled Scout skills (which is what tests typically do) rather than requiring testing of each and every skill would be way above 100% more than what's required of IOLS . . . INFINITELY more, since there is no testing at IOLS.

                          If you can convince National to introduce "WoodBadge 1900 - the REAL version", staff it with instructors genuinely competent in Scoutcraft, and offer it to our leaders at an affordable price . . . we'll plan to attend AND pass your test.

                          But, right now, what we want is something that's a step up from "IOLS - the butt-chair version" to "IOLS - the DIY version". We want a real test, but not an exhaustive one. To exhaustively and comprehensively test a group of 4 Scouters in each and every skill through 1st Class is going to be an impractical task. In our Council, you couldn't find people to GIVE that test competently. The people we know of who could do the test, aren't Wood Badge, and aren't active at the Council or District level.

                          Tell you what . . . why don't you profile your test against your committee members. Tell them you need to do it, to calibrate the test, and to identify test proctors and judges. Once they find that they can't pass it maybe they'll go along with your easing up a bit.


                          • #43
                            Actually I think you should be able to trust a 14 scout to get the proper food for a trip. They should have done it several times already as part of their patrol. In fact they should be working with the younger scouts at thsi stage IMHO.

                            As for getting the PM feel over just a weekend, I concur. That was one thing I liked about SMF: you were a patrol for a month: at the day long training covering today's This is Scouting and some SM Spec, the Model Troop Meeting nite, the patrol meeting to organize the camping trip, and the actual trip that covered today's IOLS. While breaking the old course into sections may make it easier to conduct, I think the PM got the short end of the stick.

                            Actually it would be WB 1919


                            • #44
                              Actually I think you should be able to trust a 14 scout to get the proper food for a trip.

                              Oh, I do too, it's just that it's a different mindset than what the rest of society seems to have today. What I'm really trying to say is that a Scoutmaster has a different relationship to a Patrol of his peers than he does to a Patrol of boys in his Troop, and I'm not sure that having him hang around with a group of his peers helps him figure out how to empower the boys in his Troop to run their own Patrols amid the growing nannyism around us.

                              I tried a driving metaphor, but maybe a different one would work better. Teaching a SM how to run a Troop via the Patrol Method by having him camp overnight with a half-dozen other adults seems to me like teaching a Scout how to pitch a tent by having him sleep in one. For half an hour on a calm, dry afternoon with no mosquitoes.


                              • #45
                                Tell you what . . . why don't you profile your test against your committee members. Tell them you need to do it, to calibrate the test, and to identify test proctors and judges. Once they find that they can't pass it maybe they'll go along with your easing up a bit.

                                Ha, maybe we need to institute a "Regulat'n Chip" for District, Council and National folks. You can't implement new regulations without your Regulat'n Chip, and every time you do something careless with your authority, you lose a corner.