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NYLT with Venturing

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  • #16
    I too think the name-changing is so much wasted effort. You have instructors who already have their way of saying things, and no venturer is going to be scarred being in a patrol and learning the 12 points.

    It reminds me of when an IT consultant came in and renamed some variables for clarity. It made things clear to him, but I've been living with the down-stream consequqnces ever since.

    On the flip-side I don't see any boy scout being harmed by being in a team and having to listen to the venturing oath.


    • #17
      Doesn't hurt to have some Venturing stuff.. Even WB does the Venturing stuff (although everyone has to read the oath & law as they are impossible to memorize.)..

      It is just, as you say, the old names are familure, and everyone naturally gravitates to them.. The new names are in any program, so very easily forgetable.

      We have software my company buys, then they change ownerships and names, does not matter to me, they forever remain the original software names.. Don't care if they change hand 2, 3 or 4 times.. With people you know, if you know someone when they were young and called him Bobby, you don't change to calling him Robert when he gets older and changes it for new aquantences for a more professional sound.. Old friends call him Bobby, new friends call him Robert.

      With the troop leader training, I now call it JLT, TLT or whatever they now call it.. Because people know it under different names, and I just never can remember the new acronym..


      • #18
        The impression I get in my council is that council level Venturing leaders and those whom they lead want nothing to do with Boy Scouts they want to be different, and they want everyone to know they're different. That particular group of people would resent being put in patrols with patrol leaders, an SPL, and a Scoutmaster. I don't think they mind terribly much being in patrols in Wood Badge, but mingle them with real Boy Scouts in a troop setting? No way. I think those who wrote the new syllabus sensed that, and did all they could to make it not feel like a troop. Oh really? If it looks, sounds, and smells like a pig, it's still a pig, even if you call it a swan. Nevertheless, now instead of calling it four legs and a curly tail, it's got feathers and a long neck. I just don't see the sense in it. Sorry.
        I'm still curious about my prior question ... Can a 20 year old Venturer choose to take NYLT, even though Wood Badge is available to them? Does it make sense to do that? On the other hand, I've never been a fan of having an 18 year old take Wood Badge, but given the option, I think it would probably be better. Anything (logic maybe?) prevent a Venturer from taking both? Could be in either order. I hate to pick on the 18-20 year olds, but it seems to me that a different option would be better. If Kodiak is any good, why not gear it toward 16-20 year olds? Maybe it already is. I've not studied it. Anybody know? This goes back to what BadenP said: beef up the council's Kodiak program to make it worth taking for older Scouts/Venturers. Make it different and challenging. Make it a program that Venturers would be chomping at the bit to take (and older Boy Scouts too) instead of sending them to a course with a syllabus geared toward 13-14 year olds.
        I'm just whining. I don't have answers ... just questions, and that's why I'm asking.


        • #19
          Whine away, it might help us figure something out.

          The crux of my problem (based on trying this venturing thing for only six years and wearing other hats in the process), is twofold:
          Me and another scouter took Kodak instructor training, but allocating that one week vacation time for it has been very difficult. The you in my crew are not leadership training junkies. So I thought this would be a stealthy way to fit it in. I was wrong. HS and college schedules are nasty things to try and work around.

          Most venturers are really not trek ready. At our area meetings most are in cabins. Their leaders are openly critical of youth who would plan late night outdoor activities in cool spring weather. Evidently they haven't seen the pictures on the brochures. Some of their advisors are sensitive to this and trying to change it in "baby steps". Whatever. I do the opposite and have turned off a few youth in the process, so I won't judge. But, that leaves us with youth who are more suited for NAYLE or WB than for Kodiak.


          • #20
            One more thing (aside from autocorrect not letting me spell Kodiak!). A lot of crews operate closely with troops. This is because they share leadership. We've already discussed how too close can be bad (e.g., girl lead ... almost as bad as adult lead.) but most crews have a reasonable working relationship. For example, one crew I know will camp in the vicinity of their partner troop's summer camp and meet them for Wednesday night dinner. In these situations, younger scouts have working relationships with venturers. They also see SMs and CAs working closely together. The boys almost expect leadership training to include something about venturing. A 13 year old boy might benefit from what a 17 year old young woman has learned from observing her brother's patrol.

            On the other hand, venturers who tend to avoid structure (and they are many) could stand a little retraining in how to build a team.


            • #21

              "Most Venturers are not trek ready"- qwasze

              I don't think that is really true, at least not in my experience or in my council. The teens we get for Kodiak are really open to a challenge, and we do an extensive questionaire beforehand to see what their outdoor experience has been and model the trek to be challenging but not overwhelming for them. We have had Venturers from crews who do little to no outdoor activities and they always seem to be able to reach deep inside and succeed. Of course the more experienced outdoor teens help the others to complete the trek as needed, part of developing those leadership skills. Anyway I think the problem many of these type of trainings have is that they have been so scaled down they leave little to no challenge for the participants. Our teens come back feeling they have really learned and accomplished quite a lot, and so do many of the adults who come along on the trek.


              • #22
                "In the meantime, it looks like now Kodiak is open to Boy Scouts. What for? I think that was done just to "make it fair." Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. "

                Uh, Kodiak from day one was NEVER exclusively "Venturing only". It was designed such that it could be presented to ANY youth: Boy Scouts, non scouts (say church youth group kid), etc.

                If you noticed, Kodiak was all about leadership, not about how to run a crew.

                As to WB/NYLT. As it currently stands, Venturers UNDER 18 should go to NYLT. Those 18 and over should go to Wood Badge. This IS National policy.


                • #23

                  "Venturers under 18 should go to NYLT and over 18 to WB, that is National policy" - emb021

                  Sorry emb021 that is NOT, NOT National policy. Venturers are not subject to adult training rules within the crew. A teen who is active in a troop or crew will get very little from WB. Besides how many teens over 18 are still really active in a troop or crew? Very few. The reality is that WB was designed for ADULT scout leaders not for teens, and NYLT is designed to teach young boy scouts leadership skills,with little to offer older Venturing teens, that is what Kodiak was designed and developed for, and how it should be used.


                  • #24
                    ""Venturers under 18 should go to NYLT and over 18 to WB, that is National policy" - emb021 "

                    "Sorry emb021 that is NOT, NOT National policy."

                    Sorry Baden P, but it kind of is National policy. Maybe not stated that way. (I said 'should' not 'must' or 'have to')

                    ALL BSA members 18 and up are expected to go to Wood Badge, NOT NYLT. The current Wood Badge syllabus says that participants of WB are 18 and older. So 18 and older Ventuers should be going to WB.

                    This is covered in the "Who May Attend Wood Badge?" page from the Wood Badge Admin Guide. I am looking at the 2011 edition (511-591 @2008 2010 printing with 2011 updates).

                    1. Be registered members of the Boy Scout of America (Youth older then 18 may attend as long as appropriate Youth Protection guidelines are followed. They do not need to be registered in an adult leadership role.)

                    In other works, Venturers 18 and older can attend Wood Badge AS VENTURERS, not 'snuck in' as registered ASMs or the like (which is what was happening in many cases).

                    This is a change in policy for Wood Badge that was actually implemented in the 2010 edition (which I also have a copy of). Which is interesting, as this happened the same time that NYLT officially was changed to allow Venturers to attend.

                    As for NYLT, nothing BARS the 18 and older Venturer from attending, but its clear that the preference is that they go thru WB as participants and not NYLT. And as the 2 courses are VERY similar, they aren't loosing anything. And there certainly wouldn't be any issue if these older Venturers then came back and staffed NYLT.

                    And everything I've been hearing from others bears this out.


                    • #25

                      Not to split hairs but there is NO OFFICIAL WRITTEN MANDATE from National supporting your claims. What you are referring to are only eligibility requirements to attend and nothing more. That is not how it is in my and several other neighboring councils.

                      IMO, and from a logical point of view Boy Scout and Venturing leader training should be seperate because the programs are very different as are the goals. When you combine the two you just dilute the quality and focus of the training. This is reflected in WB since they have incorporated Cub Scout leaders and Venturing leaders into the mix, the result has been a broad brush, one size fits all approach that lacks the depth and content that each of these groups leaders really need to run a real quality program.


                      • #26
                        "Not to split hairs but there is NO OFFICIAL WRITTEN MANDATE from National supporting your claims."

                        No, there is no official written mandate. But its clear that's the direction that it seems to be going, and pretty much the recommendation I'm hearing from higher ups: if under 18, go to NYLT, if 18 and older, go to WB.

                        "IMO, and from a logical point of view Boy Scout and Venturing leader training should be seperate because the programs are very different as are the goals."

                        Won't disagree with you there. I've said this from day one as a current Venturing leader and a past Boy Scout and Boy Scout leader who is also a Wood Badger, as well as someone with a lot of experience (tho none 'professionally') in the area of leadership development training. But every time I do I'm attacked by people on-line for being a big meanie who is trying to deny people from going to WB or the like.

                        Forgotten is the fact that we used to have program-specific Wood Badge courses (Explorer Wood Badge, Varsity Scout Wood Badge, Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge, Rover Wood Badge, and Seabadge was basically created to be "Sea Scout Wood Badge"). But the current direction of the BSA seems to be a 'we're all one big family' so its 'one size fits all'...

                        This has also affected PTC, where there are no-longer program focused weeks, with less program-specific courses, and what there is scattered thru out.


                        • #27
                          I attended the Southern Region NYLT Course Directors's conference last November in Irving. I can tell you that what emb021 says about 18 and over going to WB and under 18 going to NYLT is what they strongly recommended at the CDDC.


                          • #28

                            I agree with your last post, especially your synopsis of the current mentality about leadership training coming out of National. IMO this is why the quality of program delivery nationwide has fallen in quality so much. As I said before the one size fits all training is nowhere near as effective with the three programs being so dramatically different in focus, delivery, and goals.

                            It is also sad about PTC following suit offering generic superficial leadership training.
                            When will National ever learn they are just hurting the volunteers and the program quality delivered in the field. That is why I really like our SE who is more of a visionary and willing to try new things to making scouting in our council better with a higher caliber quality focused program for Cubs, Boy Scouts, and Venturing/Sea Scouts.