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  • Adult Confusion

    So how can adults take Baden Powel's vision and get it all mucked up???

    With scout trailers, big trips, country club sit down dinners for COH's, in fighting about adult sexuality.


    It is about the boys learning to plan, lead and accomplish independent of adults.....

  • #2
    Don't understand how scout trailers muck up the vision. Agree with the rest. Country club sit downs for COHs?

    Comment


    • #3
      Hypothesis: Facebook effect? Troops trying to outdo what they've seen other troops do?

      Comment


      • #4
        Patrol method and patrols.

        Watching the boys, they are just as happy playing with a hacky sack as they are a $60 football.

        some of the best campouts we have had were under plastic sheets instead of $200 tents.

        Troop trailers full of gear they might need. The boys might need to be left alone to run their program.

        Comment


        • #5
          When the BSA moved away from outdoor adventure in the early '70s, that began the shift.

          Unit level scouting--pack, troop, crew, ship--is an afterthought.

          Numbers--Eagles, dollars, JTE, popcorn sales, FOS, MBs earned during day-long universities--are more important to National.

          True scouting takes place in the outdoors. Not the board room, or auditorium.

          BP's vision is long gone. In the same manner, Green Bar Bill's status at National (persona non grata) is telling as well about National's priorities.







          Comment


          • FScouter
            FScouter commented
            Editing a comment
            BP's vision is "long gone" only to the extent that your troop or any troop has abandoned it. Let's not blame the evil "National" for what we do or don't do in our own troops.

          • desertrat77
            desertrat77 commented
            Editing a comment
            FScouter, National sets the tone, for good or ill. Units are eventually a reflection of the tone National sets.

            The BSA was able to survive the abysmal Improved Scout Program of the '70s (courtesy of National) by having numerous old time scouters at the unit level, who knew what real scouting was. They carried the torch. The ISP stunk so bad, GBB was called out of the bullpen to revive scouting, including rewriting the handbook (circa 1980).

            Sadly, most of those dedicated folks have gone on to their reward.

            The number of BP/GBB oriented folks at the unit level is no where near the levels of the '70s. So the tide of indoor/management 101/metric-driven/homework-is-better-than-being-outdoors scouting from National has gained considerable traction throughout the BSA.

            From my limited perspective, National's "product" these days is working as well as New Coke.

            Your continued advocacy of National is admirable.
            Last edited by desertrat77; 05-09-2013, 06:01 PM.

          • Sentinel947
            Sentinel947 commented
            Editing a comment
            desertrat, I do see your point. My troop has never run the patrol method the entire time I was a youth. Now as an adult, I'm pushing the patrol method to anybody who will listen. It's a tough fight, but I think the end result for the boys will be far more enriching experiences and is worth the effort.

        • #6
          Well Green bar and BP live in the inner city where the leaders and boys dream of the woods and stream.....Cloudless star lit nights and brotherhood around the campfire.

          Not some adult led gear fest......

          Comment


          • desertrat77
            desertrat77 commented
            Editing a comment
            Well said.

        • #7
          Is this about MozartBrau? I don't really get the left-field rant. Whether you're sleeping under plastic sheets, Litepac home-made tents, or Eureka Timberlines, your unit needs money. If you haven't, I'd suggest you read David Scott's "The Scouting Party" to get some honest history (not the handbook fairytale) about the founders and, yes, the role fundraising/money has played since Day One; DC Beard complained incessantly about his salary, charged troops money to visit, and continued publishing parallel books. Hit Boys' Life's Wayback machine and you'll see the money dynamic at work on every page.
          High Adventure is what keeps older boys in a troop irrespective of how beautiful the stars are 10 miles down the road as opposed to 1,000--because they're boys, and thank God for that.
          Tents are what you sleep in and gear is what you camp with; read Dan Beard's "The Book of Camp-Lore and Woodcraft" for his comments, in 1920, of the erroneous mindset about "roughing it" as opposed to being at comfort in the wild.
          If you're lucky enough to have a troop over 5 scouts and you're lucky enough that you're taking more than 10 of them out camping, yeah, it's going to take more than two drivers' trunks to get the gear there. Does that mean a troop RV? No, certainly not. For some units renting a truck once a month makes the best sense, for some having a trailer makes the best sense. If the boys don't mind their fundraising going to it, and the committee approves it, there's nothing wrong with it.

          My unit has those $200 tents (we worked out butts off for them), we have that trailer (we worked our butts off for it), we've got a stove and cook kit for every patrol (yep, earned those, too) and guess what? The boys are perfectly happy playing with a $5 Frisbee, which they do incessantly, AND they also enjoy sleeping in a tent. Imagine, having it both ways, wild!

          There is nothing intrinsically wrong with a troop being financially successful. And there is nothing intrinsically wrong with a financially successful/lucky troop putting that money into good gear. There is no intrinsic conflict between a boy-led/boy-centric program and good finances.

          There's no argument here, just your jaded PoV, which you're welcome to, but you don't need to spew on anyone else to get the bile out.

          Comment


          • #8
            you can look back thru my history of post if you like.......We are from an urban poor area surrounded by wealth or much better off areas......The scouters from this area guard their turf like rabid dogs. Don't sell popcorn in front of their walmart or lowes......Don't you dare try to sell door to door....They will call the DE and DC on you.....and they in turn will call you and tell you to stay in your own service area.....Mr. B you know better than to cross the belt way.....


            My point......

            What happened to a boy, a bag and an adventure.

            Just seems lost in all of the gear.

            Comment


            • #9
              FScouter is right...the intent of Scouting is not lost *if* your troop (your boys) decides to embrace it. A few examples from my own troop:

              - FOS: It is done parent to parent. Kids don't see it. I don't like it but...according to folks I know at national...much of that money goes toward getting kids from inner cities out to local/regional camps. So while the big, bad adults are sticking their nose into Scouting it is a program to benefit youth. I have no issue with its [FOS] mission. My complaint is how they hound you.

              - Boy and a Bag vs. Trailer and a Truck: We do the boy+pack thing, but we also do a trailer. Why? It is a tool for the boys to implement the patrol method, just like cars are tools used to convey your troop to/from camp. The boys take care of their gear, the boys buy their gear, the boys repleace their gear, the boys pack their gear. Just like personal gear, this is group gear used for a communal purpose.

              - Tents vs. Plastic: This boggles my mind. Why even use plastic? B-P might simply have said sleep under the stars. So you sleep under plastic. Does that make you a more pure B-P Scout than those of use who have tents? For all you know B-P would have said go without and sleep sans ANY covering. We choose tents for a number of reasons. We camp in areas where there are tons of mosquitoes and West Nile. Should we camp under plastic and put our boys are risk? Are we allowed to use DEET or would B-P frown on that too?

              BD, I think all too often you confuse your issues. While we agree that all things in Scouting should be boy-led, you seem to think anything that requires any adult input -- or anything where money is an issue -- is all bad and un-scotuing in some way. The chip on your shoulder is huge. Unless you actually know anyone on this board personally I highly doubt you know the extent to which they run their units boy-led. I am sure your boys don't file all your paperwork, track everyone's training, manage your website, balace your books, etc. There *are* tasks that adults are supposed to do. Some troops simply have more resources to implement their program, but you act like that is a bad thing even if their troop is just as boy-led as yours. You can't go to Yorktown, so you poo-poo the idea as not scouting related or some such non-sense. And yet, the CC in N MB requires you to visit certain national monuments if you can. I've been to Yorktown...great place. Our boys hiked it and learned a great deal. Three inner city kids in our troop loved it. Guess what? We PAID for them to go because our troop is fortunate enough to have a scholarship fund which THE BOYS donate money they EARN into just so kids who cannot afford to go places can.

              It sounds like you have some bad troops near you that are not friendly. But you seem to treat everyone like they are out to harm you or something. Take a chill, remove the chip and have a conversation. Ironically, you treat many here the way you portray the guys in your district treat you.

              Comment


              • #10
                While time marches on, things change. Now that change can be for the good or for the bad. Everyone needs to decide which it is for them.

                If one were to go back and read all the old scout novels that were available to boys pre-TV when they actually knew how to read to entertain themselves, most of what these boys did has nothing to do with what is being promoted in scouting today. Actually most of the stuff they did was against modern day policy. Summer camp was actually that, it lasted all summer, not just a week of high powered programming. Some of the earliest books had summer camps before there were actual summer camps. By this I mean summer camp was an activity, not a physical location.

                Of course the boys were better prepared and trained and were able to pull off such activities. Adults were marginal in everything, but they were still available when needed. Scout skills were important and were emphasized in the development of the plots to these novels. Strict patrol method was always evident in that individuals rarely interacted with other patrols and the patrols were the focus of the boys' concerns.

                Green Bar Bill recognized the loss of such emphasis about 50 years into the program and brought it back briefly until it once again fell out of vogue.

                Every troop has the option of going with the flow or going with the program. There's still a place in this society for the skills developed under the old program and have a tendency of being tried and true. Now the question remains, will the adults allow it? No parent really wants to see their children become truly independent in today's society, whereas 100 years ago, a 13 year old functioned pretty much as an adult. Now we have 30 year olds still living at home in the basement (no slam intended towards Basementdweller ).

                Scouting is a program that allows for maturity, character development, and effective citizenship in a community. All of which have taken their beating in the past 50 years. I know. I've lived through them and watched it happen.

                Stosh

                Comment


                • #11
                  geezus, I could give a crap about tents.........WE SLEPT UNDER PLASTIC SHEETING BECAUSE THAT IS ALL WE HAD.....Just that simple....Thanks to some generous members on this board and spending money out of my pocket the troop has tenting..... So let me see camping under plastic sheeting or no outdoor program......




                  MB I am glad your scouting world is all warm and fuzzy......I am happy you joined an active program that has decent gear and program. Some guys are lucky that way....





                  The rest of us just play the hand we are dealt.


                  Blake....my screen names comes from a period of time I ran a computer and engineering consulting business out of my Basement.......Wife started calling me basementdweller. I am not the Urban definition of a basementdweller.

                  Comment


                  • jblake47
                    jblake47 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I'm glad to hear that. I was figuring someone who loves the out-of-doors would be spending a minimal amount of time in the basement anyway.

                • #12
                  It always amazes me how everyone seems to think that the modern tent is the only way to go. The sewn in floors hold water in just as well as out and one always has to be concerned about wrecking it, no boots, no packs, no rocks and sticks underneath, etc. etc. etc.

                  Just think. I have a floorless canvas tent. It is tall enough to stand in, hang my clothes, take a military cot, folding chair and Rubbermaid to haul it all and second as a night stand.

                  I walk in and out without taking my shoes off. I can camp on rocks and sticks without a problem.

                  I can have my backpack in the tent, hanging on a hook or tossed on the floor.

                  When it rains and the water runs it, it just keeps on going out just as fast. When boys are out running around tucking their ground cloths under their tent. I'm tossing mine over the top of my tent. That way I don't have so much tent to dry out and if I do touch the walls, so what.

                  Bugs? That's what netting is all about.

                  It doesn't have a zipper that will get wrecked.

                  Just because it's modern, doesn't mean it's better.

                  My weekender tent? GI's carried them around in WWII and Korea and weight wasn't a problem.

                  Backpack tent? GI poncho. 3 corners staked down, the other one propped up with a stick. Works just fine.

                  I haven't wrecked the floor of a tent ever....
                  Never wrecked a zipper either....

                  Stosh

                  Comment


                  • Krampus
                    Krampus commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Some localities will not allow camping without a tent. Odd, but true. But I suspect in some locations where west nile is abundant it has more to do with convenience of logistics not having to do a philmont fly + netting for 50+ scouts, as well as for health issues.

                    To be honest I could go either way. I don't see a big deal about either.

                • #13
                  inner city boys are wigged out by the bugs........ It just boggles my mind as well......many live in coach roach infested homes......We have had several with bed bug issues....


                  But see a daddy long leg or mosquito you thought the world ended....

                  Tents really helped me get the boys more interested in a more active outdoor program.

                  We put our order in for some 2013 Jambo tents......a bargain at $38 bucks.......I can outfit for the new patrol for about $200 plus shipping

                  Comment


                  • King Ding Dong
                    King Ding Dong commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Do you have a link for that ? I would be interested in looking that up.

                    I am starting to understand you a little better. Your issue is not with tents per say, just $200 tents. I get it. They boys are a bit rough with them and they are not lasting. I think they have a time and place, but I would like to explore a better option for fair weather camping.

                  • Basementdweller
                    Basementdweller commented
                    Editing a comment
                    they offered an additional discount if you ordered before May 1st...... While all of he gear isn't a bargain. and I am flabbergasted by the $2k mountain bikes. The tents fit my budget.


                    [URL="https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Documents/5741_Jam_Selloff-R8.pdf"]https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Documents/5741_Jam_Selloff-R8.pdf[/URL="https://summit.scouting.org/en/Jamboree2013/Documents/5741_Jam_Selloff-R8.pdf"]

                  • Basementdweller
                    Basementdweller commented
                    Editing a comment
                    correction the additional discount was April 15th and I paid by the deadline so we got the extra 15% off. I am going to ask the jambo contingent to bring them back if they could....I am friends with one of the troops SM.

                • #14
                  Originally posted by King Ding Dong View Post
                  Your issue is not with tents per say, just $200 tents.
                  $40 Ozark Trail tents at Walmart that sleep 4-6 lasted three years longer than the $150 3-man tents we got at REI.

                  Comment


                  • King Ding Dong
                    King Ding Dong commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Good point. My main concern is dry tents. REI supposedly has a 100% lifetime guarantee. We have a couple of those that leak and plan to test out their stated policy.

                    I also think our troop needs to make a distinction between a car camping tent and a backpacking tent. I have a 8 person Eureka for $200 that doesn't leak. But I take care of it.

                • #15
                  Ozark trail tents are complete garbage......The fiberglass poles on the ones we tried splintered in a couple of uses....The flys are not full length flys resulting in some pretty significant water issues......I am sure there are different models the 4 man we had was complete garbage.....

                  While REI has a 100% lifetime guarantee, I don't know that I could ask them to honor that warranty for troop owned tents........Just doesn't feel very scout like....


                  Comment


                  • Basementdweller
                    Basementdweller commented
                    Editing a comment
                    KDD you are incorrect......

                    My COR has a document signed by every institutional head since 1978 that state the Troop gear is solely owned and property of the troop.....The church youth group borrowed it without permission and did significant damage, from hundreds to thousands of dollars depending on the version you wish to believe. Our gear is stored were the church and church members do not have access to it.

                  • Krampus
                    Krampus commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Well all I can tell you is that the Ozark Trail tents we have had have lasted 5 years, 10 camp outs a year, hot and cold weather and 75+ scouts beating the snot out of them.

                  • King Ding Dong
                    King Ding Dong commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I guess they don't make them like they used to.

                    I have two OT air mattresses that have done well, same box different design. OT Is a Walmart brand not a manufacturer, so quality can vary greatly depending on the forced child labor camp that manufactures it.
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