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iPods and the "Real" Patrol Method

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  • #31
    Kudu, It's a fairly simple question.

    You have made the statement here repeatedly that boys that don't participate in certain activities are not "Real Scouts". You feel the need to tell anyone reading your posts, (including scouts, I'm sure) this. Apparently you have some scouts in your troop that don't meet your definition of a "Real Scout". Do you tell them they are not "Real Scouts"?


    • #32
      Eagle it is an excuse.....

      There was a blind guy who hiked the AT in the last couple of that excuse isn't valid

      Far as the 14 year old care giver.......Be a leader for petesake.......look into getting someone to give the kid the weekend off...... Ask the CO or scout Parents who are not going or troop leadership to step up.........This absolutely makes me want to vomit.

      NO sense of community in that troop......

      Far as welfare kids go....Mine get to the woods monthly....and you don't have to travel 4 hours to be in a wilderness area in most places...even LA, Chicago or New York..... You can get there in an hour or two.....

      Didn't the song say something about the road to hell bein paved with good intentions.....

      Act like a scout and step up.(This message has been edited by Basementdweller)


      • #33

        Eagle732, and it's a fairly simple answer: "What kind of question is that?"

        In other words, I question your motivation for asking it.

        You seem to be searching for some cruel moral absolutism, rather than finding common ground on which to build a challenging outdoor program for boys who crave outdoor adventure even though it is no longer "required" to reach even the highest rank in American Scouting.

        Yours at 300 feet,



        • #34
          Hearing from Rick and his ilk about what a "real" Scout is certainly thought provoking.

          I note that we have had some guidance over the year about what a "Scout" is.

          On my honour I promise that:-
          1. I will do my duty to God and the King.
          2. I will do my best to help others whatever it may cost me. .
          3. I know the scout law and will obey it.

          1. A Scout's honour is to be trusted.
          2. A Scout is Loyal to the King and to his officers, and to his country, and to his employers.
          3. A Scout's duty is to be useful and to help others.
          4. A Scout is a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout, no matter to what social class the other belongs.
          5. A Scout is Courteous.
          6. A Scout is a friend to animals.
          7. A Scout obeys orders of his patrol leader or scout master without question.
          8. A Scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances.
          9. A Scout is thrifty.

          On my honor, I will do my best
          To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
          To help other people at all times;
          To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

          A Scout is:
          and Reverent.

          While one may argue that BP and Bill missed something absolutely central to being a "real" Scout, it seems dubious to appeal to their authority for the proposition that a "real" Scout is something they both somehow left out of the Oath and Law, bright and articulate as they were.

          I love camping. I have uncritically accepted for decades that wilderness backpacking is Scouting at its best. The most impressive troo0ps I have seen were strong in the outdoor program. But maybe I have been wrong. Perhaps Scouting at its best is gathering food for the hungry. BP might have said that helping an injured animal was Scouting at its best.

          At least BP and Bill were not confused about methods vs. objectives. If a boy emerges from Scouting as a good man, a good citizen, and fit in mind and body, I think we have done well - and exactly, explicitly, and emphatically what BP and Bill said over and over was the objective.


          • #35
            Oh, I see.
            You're the one making judgmental statements, calling some scouts "Real" and others less than "Real" scouts but I'm the one "searching for some cruel moral absolutism".

            Basement, thank you again for jumping to the absolute worst possible conclusion about me and my troop's program. You don't have a clue as to what we do for our boys. My point in using these two outstanding "Real" scouts as examples was not to give excuses as to why they can't go camping, it was to show that some boys, for a variety of reasons, may not be able to participate in the level expected by some to become a "Real" scout.
            Both boys participate as much as they can or chose to and the troop picks up all costs of camping (including summer camp), provides gear such as sleeping bags and packs and makes sure one has a ride to meetings every week. No sense of community? Again, you're great at jumping to conclusions without the any facts.
            (This message has been edited by Eagle732)


            • #36
              hmmmm, that isn't what you were implying

              "My two scouts that don't backpack or canoe. One is legally blind and deaf, the other can not leave his parents alone overnight because at 14 he is their caretaker, they both have severe medical condition (MS and cancer). Both boys are real scouts. "

              So you neglect facts to try to support your argument in a deceptive way......


              • #37
                Basement, so tell me what I was implying.
                And now I'm deceptive???
                May you just don't get my point so I'll try to explain it one last time.

                In reference to these comments:
                "The only "Real" Boy Scouts are those whose great Scouting passion is to camp out of a backpack or canoe.
                Boy Scouts who love to cover eight miles a day with a pack on their backs or a paddle in their hands, live the Scout Law differently than those who don't."

                I do not believe it is appropriate to label boys as "Real Scouts" based on what activities they participate in. I believe that to tell a boy he is not a "Real Scout" because for whatever reason he can not or will not participate in canoeing or backpacking outings every month is counterproductive. Instead of labeling boys I try to encourage them to participate in a variety of activities of the troop's choosing. If the troop chooses to do activities other than the "Real Scout" type activities it doesn't make them, in my opinion, any less of a scout.

                Very simple. Hope you get it. Maybe you don't agree with me but that's OK.


                • #38
                  What I took from the original post was

                  Blind kid who can't participate because he is blind

                  Caregiver kid who can't participate because he is the caregiver

                  "Both boys participate as much as they can or chose to" So the reality is it isn't like either boy is using their situation as an excuse

                  Fair enough..


                  • #39

                    Tahawk writes:

                    "I have uncritically accepted for decades that wilderness backpacking is Scouting at its best. The most impressive troops I have seen were strong in the outdoor program."

                    Um, Eagle732, you missed your cue: According to your "inference" logic, we must conclude that Tahawk tells Scouts who don't backpack that they are not the "best," and that their Troop is not "impressive."

                    On this issue I find common ground with Tahawk. I would add that because Baden-Powell's backpacking Journeys are no longer expected monthly for the Patrol Method, or "required" for advancement in the BSA, they can give an adult leader insights into what Scouting is all about: A significant undertaking that outdoor boys do for the pure joy of it.

                    Yours at 300 feet,



                    • #40
                      ya know kudu.....

                      backpacking is a heck of lot easier than car camping.......

                      so it is no significant under taking......

                      I prefer the boys go backpacking to car camping


                      • #41
                        I do realize that the meanings of words change over the years, but the word scout in B-P's vocabulary was a specialized soldier that would move out into unknown areas and garner up information about the enemy. These people needed the skills necessary to work independently of the main military force and needed to rely on their own skills to go undetected and simply survive out beyond the ability of the army to support them.

                        When B-P chose the name for the organization he used this word which had a meaning that defined the scope of what he was attempting to create for young boys, the ability to move away from the safety of a known environment and go out and explore the unknown having been trained to so so.

                        Does that mean scouts car camp in public campgrounds that have a game room and camp store just down the street? Does it mean that the scouts gather for camporees and summer camps with a mess hall? Or does it mean they are to move away from the comfort of the known into the world of the unknown. After all there is no adventure in the known.

                        What is it we are preparing the boys for? BE PREPARED is having the skills to meet the unknown. Sure there is a lot of training getting these boys ready, but for what?

                        Real scouts are those prepared to take on the challenges of moving away from the training camp, base supplies and strike out into the unknown where the adventure really is.



                        • #42
                          As we continue to discuss what a "real scout" is, perhaps we should hear from the Founder what his vision of the Scouting Movement is


                          Select BP's Message to the Public


                          • #43

                            A very interesting debate indeed. Quoting BP's statements IMO gives us insight to our true scouting roots or core program. The problem is that many of todays scouters and parents use the argument that those roots are over 100 years old and are no longer relevant to todays society, thereby justifying their troops "sedentary" outdoor programs. IMO a good PR campaign by National reemphasizing these core scouting roots/values and changing scouter trainings to emphasize them in troop programsis what is truly needed in the BSA these days to attract new members and keep the ones we already have in the program.


                            • #44
                              I don't think his message is dated, B-P was looking for the Scout program to develop men of charactor who would be good citizens. I think we need that as much today as ever. Then again. That is what I heard. I present it to find out what other people hear.


                              • #45
                                A Scout is . . . .