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  • #16
    Some people are just by nature lazy. I'm not meaning that in a negative way. I believe the majority of us lack true leadership ambition. That doesn't mean the scouts aren't learning the leadership skills you are teaching. It's the Scoutmasters responsibility to help a scout grow. Where you find that growth is hard to define sometimes, but admitting our failings to me is growth. I don't know how old your SPL is, but if he is 14 or younger, he may still turn into a great leader. I seen puberty do it many times. If he is older, it is rare that he will change much. But, one scout that I had this same conversation is now a very successful business owner in my town. So I fully believe they are getting what we are offereing, even if they don't see it just yet.
    Last edited by Eagledad; 06-18-2013, 08:46 AM.

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    • #17
      Anyone else feel the usability of the new Scouter.com forum is synonymous to the BSA's present situation. A response requires a great deal of planning, persistence and patience. My response to King Dingdong will be brief, wish me luck. Your highness, if you can't keep older scouts in your program, you are doing it wrong. Barry
      Last edited by Eagledad; 06-19-2013, 09:33 AM.

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      • MattR
        MattR commented
        Editing a comment
        Barry, try editing your message in another window, then login to the forum, then just copy and paste. it works well for me.

      • Eagledad
        Eagledad commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks MattR, I was doing that until about a week ago. Now it kicks me out of the editor when I paste.

        Barry

      • MattR
        MattR commented
        Editing a comment
        Well, try waiting another week

    • #18
      We got passion

      I like Kudu's 300' ideas. I had to get us off the 300 pounds of gear before we could do it, but it's just a way to say patrol based activities and not troop based activities. My troop is finally getting there and my scouts like it. My goal is to have the PLs strong enough that any one could be SPL, and maybe we could just get rid of the SPL and the PLs could just take turns. I think that's what Kudu is talking about.

      I also appreciate what BD is going through. I had a scout that everyone was sure would never, ever, be responsible for anything, much less a leader. All of a sudden last year he found out he was really good at tying knots (we had a blind folded knot tying contest). In February he became a troop guide and all his new scouts really like him. He's now a patrol leader. He cares about his patrol. He doesn't want to manage it, he wants to lead it. So the idea of building up a leader is a reasonable idea to me.

      Kudu says patrol elections are a popularity contest. Not in my troop. Maybe I'm just lucky but over the past two cycles, only the best scouts have been voted in. Granted, we do things differently than most troops, but the scouts know who's good and who isn't.

      One thing I'd like to add is that changing a troop from, say, troop method to patrol method, or adult led to scout led, takes a lot of effort. Changing culture in a troop is not easy. What a younger scout sees is what he'll do when he gets older and starts leading or being a role model. If a young scout sees an older scout lead then he'll learn from that and try and emulate it when it's his turn, at least in the beginning. That's what I did when I became SM. For a situation like what BD has, where there is no prior leadership to learn from the scout has nothing to emulate, and flailing would be expected. We can use words all we want to try and explain how to do it but words are only so good when it comes to leadership. And that's why I also agree with Kudu's dim view on classroom leadership training. What I'm finding is that being a troop guide and/or working at summer camp helps a scout gain confidence in working with other people, and is a much better way to learn leadership than something like NYLT. It's not that NYLT isn't useful, but it it not sufficient and only somewhat necessary.

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      • Eagledad
        Eagledad commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes, only the best scouts were elected in our troop as well. But our guys work so hard that only the ambitous scouts want the position. The SPL position is kind of SM in training for me, I work with them in the skills of coaching, mentoring, delegating and patience. It's worked well because they like to go back and teach those skills to the Patrol Leaders. Interestingly the SPL's typically want a break after six months because they work so hard. And they typically volunteer for Troop Guides and are very good at it. I don't know if one started that tradition or what, but they want teach, coach, and mentor and the new guys seem perfect for them. But six months later they want the SPL responsibility back because they miss the intensitiy of it. Our style seems to naturally raise the cream to the top. I can't take responsibilty, I didn't plan it that way. But it sure is rewarding to watch.

        Barry

    • #19
      I feel you did a good job with him. Hope things get better.

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      • #20
        Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
        I guess that is the issue....

        Is he completely lost and comes a crossed uninterested.....Or doesn't he care?????? that is the million dollar question.

        Well tonight I sat down with the spl duties out of the book and asked him if he honestly did the duties one at a time......HIs answer was no to most.......I suggested we wait on the smc and bor till those answers were yes's.
        If that worked, then run with it, but I agreed with your initial conclusion that you haven't got any good option except to give it to him. The Guide to Advancement is clear that to deny him credit, you must have sat him down months ago, told him the problems, and given him a clear path to success. (This isn't an endorsement of the policy, it's simply how it is.)
        You say you're 4 months in; If you do a 6-month term, and if I were you, your meeting of 6/18 is your "intervention" and the next 2 months are his chance to make good or else not get credit come August.

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        • #21
          Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
          Let me see..... His contribution to the troop meeting is British Bull Dog. ...
          Then he contributed! (Can you guess my favorite scouting game?)

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          • #22
            Okay, maybe I'm biased. But, at a certain point you have to prepare a kid to count positives. Sure, he did precious little, but always bring him to what he DID accomplish. Who knows? That one troop tradition might outlast all of that management training we cherish so highly.

            Here's hoping at least one more "yes" is on the checklist in the next few weeks.

            Comment


            • #23
              Originally posted by Kudu View Post
              In Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method, the PATROL Leaders elect the SPL.
              In Leadership Development's Troop Method, the TROOP elects the SPL.
              In the Real Patrol Method, the PATROL Leaders always outnumber the SPL in the PATROL Leader's Council.
              In the Troop Method the TROOP SPL's patronage positions, such as the TROOP ASPLs and the TROOP Guides, can vote against the Patrol Leaders.
              Maybe the word "Troop" has been Program Neutered out of NYLT, like the Patrol Leaders were neutered out of the "Patrol Method" presentation of Scoutmaster-specific training?
              Yours at 300 feet,
              Kudu
              http://kudu.net/
              Here's your chance to unload, Scouting Magazine just admonished us all that if our troop isn't working, it's because we aren't using the Patrol Method: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/201...-death-spiral/

              Comment


              • jblake47
                jblake47 commented
                Editing a comment
                I needed to have a magazine tell me something that I've known all along?????

              • koolaidman
                koolaidman commented
                Editing a comment
                Thank you for the link. It is always good to have an article like this (or three) up your sleeve to help explain things to "helpful" adults.

            • #24
              Well, gotta laugh.

              SPL epic fail at summer camp. Missed breakfast twice.....didn't sign us up for flags or meal prayer, didn't sign us up for campfire skit.....Just had a meeting with him and mom and asked him if he provided any leadership....to my surprise he said no...mom smacked him in the back of the head.....bout spit my coffee all over the table.

              Mom wanted to know what happened....I asked scout to explain.....Well, I coached him all week about what needed to happen....He started with he slept thru breakfast....moms face got reder, he then mentioned not signing us up for skits, prayer and flags......We failed camp inspection because he did not put up the fire chart....The duty rosters were never completed...... For passing the camp inspection the PD gave entire troops small monkey fists. That really endeared him to the troop.

              Mom looked me dead in the eye and asked what I wanted to do......Well, since he did not provide leadership for the last 6 months it will not be recorded. He can run for election again in a couple of months....

              The troop was mad enough I doubt he will get re elected.
              Last edited by Basementdweller; 07-01-2013, 05:58 PM. Reason: premature posting

              Comment


              • qwazse
                qwazse commented
                Editing a comment
                I think at some point you need to tell the Mom that advancement is only one method of scouting!

                The fact that he said "no" on his own does say something about the him. Now a lot of times I do get kids who are overly self-critical. They may make too many goals for themselves, or they may think that once they hold that patch their rough edges will magically disappear. But regardless, they were able to say something for themselves.

              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                Well I spoke with him probably 3 times a day about things he missed or met with him after the spl meeting so he could regurgitate what was said or asked...I asked him 4 times a day about fire chart and getting the troop flag up....

                So he knew he wasn't doing the job.....and frankly at the end of the week he was simply done with it.

            • #25
              It's great that mom is on board; I would generally have expected her to smack the SM in the back of the head.

              Comment


              • Eagledad
                Eagledad commented
                Editing a comment
                Nine out of ten parents want to work with the scoutmasters, expecially with their sons behaviors, or misbehaviors. I found that most SMs want to go it alone thinking they have something special that parents don't have. And maybe the title of Scoutmaster does give some extra power, but we only see these kids a couple hours a week on average, the parent a lot more. So I worked with the parents as a team working together to build a man. I hid nothing from the parents and usually kept them up to date on their son's performance in the troop. In fact while the scouts are usually loading or unloading their gear for camp, I walked around bragging to parents about their son. Usually they take bad news pretty well when they get good news most of the time. Base did very well. Barry

              • Scouter99
                Scouter99 commented
                Editing a comment
                Our troop has a lot of very special snowflakes, and their parents (for the most part) aren't interested in hearing bad news like "your son hasn't done jack squat despite repeated interventions, we're not signing him off." It's very much a class/economic thing. BD's scout parents are a lot different than my scout parents.
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