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  • #31
    I have heard from some of my Scouts that they didn't learn anything in our council's first year program. They were just bored. HOWEVER, they are in an accelerated school and are on a fast track to college--at age 11. Their parents push them to earn ALL the merit badges "because it will help [them] get into a good college".

    So...our council's program is probably pretty good but NOT geared towards the academic overachievers. LOL

    Now, I remember the Mountain Man program at Woodruff (as Tampa Turtle mentioned above) and have nothing but good memories. Most of my Scouting skills were learned from older Scouts in the North Georgia mountains. We hiked, camped at an outpost, cooked awesome meals together with our patrol mates (from my Troop!), and generally had a blast. AND it came with a sweet pocket flap patch like the older OA Scouts had! (I thought I was pretty awesome with that flap on...)



    • #32
      Originally posted by Scouter99 View Post
      Both camps we attend beg, beg, beg troops to send adults because once a group gets over ~5, the one staffer is not enough to handle things. The troop adult is not there to do anything except follow the counselor's lead and give extra coverage.
      We're glad to send an adult because then we know the boys (and not necessarily just those from our troop alone) are getting a better instructional experience--the same reason that schools/parents want smaller class sizes. It also lets us know whether or not the counselor is doing his job. The new scout program is not a job 99% of counselors are jumping to have, and [where we camp] it's usually staffed by low guys on the totem pole who don't have experience in teaching large groups of 10-11-yr-olds, don't have interest, and as teenagers are just as liable to goof off as the campers.

      Now that is a whole lot different than sending an adult troop rep along to over see the quality of the camps program.

      I think we all pitch in and help at summer camp when asked.....

      Old BD stomped on old brews toes I guess....... I only have a tiny window into your program and it is very cloudy so the view isn't good. Got a guilty conscious or something? Ya I am laughing at you


      • #33
        Originally posted by LeCastor View Post
        Most of my Scouting skills were learned from older Scouts in the North Georgia mountains. We hiked, camped at an outpost, cooked awesome meals together with our patrol mates (from my Troop!), and generally had a blast. AND it came with a sweet pocket flap patch like the older OA Scouts had! (I thought I was pretty awesome with that flap on...)

        Sounds like a GtSS nightmare, or as Rockwell's painting was titled, "The Right Way."


        • #34
          Camp differ greatly in this, some have gifted staffers who are willing to spend extra time with a newbee who needs some one on one.
          Others..... lets just say that you can not learn knife and ax safety by listening to a 14 year old read from the handbook, for 20 minutes, in a class of 40 plus.
          O my scouts were signed off all right, but they almost lost a finger or two, until we realized that none of them had the smallest idea of how to use an ax.
          Since I can't "un-signoff" we held a troop wide "refresher course" with a lot of "show me" time.
          But I think the biggest drawback to the first year program is the older scouts (PLs) need to learn how to teach.
          Spend time with the new scouts.
          Build the patrol into a unit.
          That just does not happen when they are split up all week.


          • #35
            Many of my professors told us you need to be taught something three times before you begin to learn it. We like first year programs as the first or second iteration. (First or second depending on when they've joined, and how effective the PL is.) We even ask if some of our trainers can help teach some of the requirements. This way they get honest feedback from Scouts not in our troop.
            Feedback is important. In patrol competitions the judges make sure that none hang back while only a few superScouts do everything.
            District camporees also provide good feedback. If we don't finish in the top 25%, then we know what our program in the following months really needs to be.


            • #36
              The purpose of "1st Year" programs (and "Troop" Guides) is to replace Hillcourt's Real Patrol Method with the Troop Method, so that the Patrol Leader "Position of Responsibility" can be reused every six months for a new Scout's advancement.


              • #37
                The purpose of the "1st Year" programs at summer camps is to familiarize new summer campers with the features of the camp. Sales uber alles. If done well, it encourages the Scouts to want to come back because the Scouts have a good time. Such programs go back at least to 1954 in my original council and to at least 1960 in both of the councils were I presently Scout. In our troop, the 1st year Scouts participate as a patrol.

                A Scout should have a position of responsibility for only one reason - he will benefit from taking responsibility. I have seen "troop method" troops that were boy run and "troop method" troops that were adult run. The one does not seem to be essential to the other, though both are contrary to Boy Scouting.

                Do adults rotate leadership positions solely fpor purpoes of advancement? Absolutely. And they absolutely are not leading Boy Scouting.
                Last edited by TAHAWK; 05-17-2014, 05:45 PM.


                • #38
                  In both Hillcourt's "Real" Patrol Method and Baden-Powell's Patrol System, the purpose of a Patrol is to go out on patrol without other Patrols.

                  Boy Scouts in a "Real" Patrol learn outdoor skills in the backwoods from their Patrol Leader.

                  A summer school class of first-year Scouts is not a "Real" Patrol.


                  • #39
                    The purpose of a patrol is to be a school of citizenship. At least that's what BP and Bill wrote over and over and over. The outdoor program is one of the methods, not the purpose, much less the only method.

                    The notion that a patrol is not real except when patrolling in the woods is unique to you, Rick. Everyone else would agree, for example, that a patrol doing a service project or raising the Colors, as my troop will do on Sunday to honor our service dead, is quite "real" in a Scouting sense.


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TAHAWK View Post
                      If like CAPSLOCK TAHAWK (may I call you CAPSLOCK?) you believe that the fundamental definition "only a hiking Patrol is a Real Patrol" is unique to Kudu, then thank a Wood Badge Staffer.


                      • #41
                        Call me anything that you like, Rick.

                        Like anyone else here, I can read what BP and Bill wrote about the purposes of Scouting. The notion that one of Scouting's methods is the only purpose of Scouting is unique to you so far as I can discover.

                        Others can form their own opinions.


                        • #42
                          To pretend that you know me well enough to call me "Rick" is as intentionally misleading as your assertion that one of Scouting's methods is the only purpose of Scouting, which is unique to you so far as I can discover.


                          • #43
                            A "real" patrol.

                            Sorry, Mr. Seymour. I do not pretend to know you well at all. All I know of you is what you post on the Internet. I do not intend to mislead anyone into believing anything else.

                            I have possibly been unclear. I have not meant to suggest in any way that one of Scouting's methods is the only purpose of Scouting. On the contrary, in our discussions over the years, I have attempted to distinguish between purposes/aims, on the one hand, and methods on the other.

                            The Patrol Method is a method. It's purpose according to BP, Bill, and even the BSA is to contribute to development of good people and good citizens who are fit. That, I think, is a different view than your claim that "the purpose of a Patrol is to go out on patrol without other Patrols."

                            Moreover, Bill emphasized the role of the patrol in the troop. "[N]o Patrol exists exists for and by itself alone. In addition to its life as an individual unit, each Patrol plays a part in the larger life of the Troop.. . . Your Patrol can never have real Patrol Spirit unless is also has a genuine Troop Spirit and eagerness to he[p the Troop make a good showing in whatever it undertakes, devotion to Troop ideals, and loyalty to Troop leaders." William Hillcourt, Handbook for Patrol Leaders, BSA (1950) at p.p. 27-28. He goes on to specifically mention patrol support of and participation in troop "meetings, hikes and camps," Id. at p.34, and "other Troop Activities," Id. at p. 36. "The big thing is to enter fully into all Troop activities." Id. at p. 37.

                            I am convinced that the patrol operating under the Patrol Method is where a Scout should primarily experience Scouting and that the Outdoor Program is almost as important as the Patrol Method in achieving Scouting's aims. I remain unconvinced that all of "real" Scouting can be summed up by patrolling as a patrol with no adults around - if Scouting is to be defined by any combination of the works of BP, Bill, and BSA.
                            Last edited by TAHAWK; 05-20-2014, 06:39 PM.


                            • #44
                              And yet you continue to use my name as a rhetorical device, and mislead people with a false accounts of how I "sum up Scouting" with Wood Badge formulas.

                              To quote lofty passages about the part that a Patrol plays in a Troop but refuse to acknowledge Green Bar Bill's fundamental maxim that a Patrol is not "Real" until it hikes on its own on a regular basis, is to argue that a basketball team can achieve some abstract "purpose of basketball" without learning to bounce a ball.


                              • #45
                                I use your name because its your name and you have used it in repeatedly in public posting of your information (much fantastic), your ideas, and your judgments on the internet. I found those posts by Googling "Kudu" and found your name. I was able to find many more of your posts by Googling "Rick Seymour Scouting" (49,500 hits).

                                I confess that find your tremendous hostility to all things Wood Badge ("Wood Badge makes you stupid.") inconsistent with your nom d'plume here. "Rick Seymour" seems somehow more fitting to me. But, "A rose by any other name . . . ."

                                Again, call me anything you want. You've done that.

                                I respond only to what you have typed with your own fingers. I quote your actual words:

                                "the purpose of a Patrol is to go out on patrol without other Patrols." or

                                "Clearly Baden-Powell based what we call "advancement" solely on the mastery of objective Scoutcraft and Public Service skills. That means no "values" tests: No Boards of Review, No Scoutmaster Conferences, No wildcard Scout Spirit requirements."

                                I refuse to "acknowledge" statements that you make, like these two (Many other examples available.) that are clearly contrary to the words of the very authorities whom you cite.

                                I quote the actual, published words of those authorities. Scouting, according to them, at least, is not only patrol hiking, as noted at length in my last post. Scouting, additionally, is very much about values:

                                "Had we called it what it was, viz. a "Society for the Propagation of Moral Attributes," the boy would not exactly have rushed for it. But to call it SCOUTING and give him the chance of becoming an embryo Scout, was quite another pair of shoes." BP, Lessons from the Varsity of Life (1933)

                                "The object of a camp is (a) to meet the boy's desire for the open-air life of the Scout, and (b) to put him completely in the hands of his Scoutmaster for a definite period for training in character and initiative and in physical and moral development." BP, B-P's Outlook, The Scouter, October, 1909.

                                And it started with: Scouting for Boys - A Handbook for Instruction in Good Citizenship. BP, 1908.

                                If I am inaccurate, I will be found out. Anyone here can read the texts by BP and Bill. Both were prolific. Many are available free on the Internet. Such study of what BP and Bill actually wrote over the years could only be a benefit. They were not perfect, but they were giants.

                                I yearn for more patrol-centered troops, for more independent patrol activities, for more youth leadership, and for more outdoor program. I yearn for better training of leaders and Scouters in Scoutcraft so they could help put on a more exciting and challenging outdoor program. and stay out of the way of youth leadership in the process I do not like much of what I see and try to build alliances to change things, with some success.

                                You, I believe based on the objective evidence, yearn for a past that never was. And, despite all the good you could do with you passion and devotion to the outdoor program, you denounce anything that does not fit exactly within your purity tests and thus drive away those who are not up to your imagined standards of perfection.

                                __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
                                A new Scoutmaster Specific syllabus is almost ready with a new chapter on the Patrol Method, produced by a Scouter who seems to know what Bill meant by the Patrol Method. It was delayed by finished Venturing Training materials, but is very close.