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  • OA and Venture Crews

    If OA is a representative of Scouters in General, please explain why Venture Crews are not included in the OA structure. We are an approved BSA program with many youth exceeding many of the programs that troops provide.
    i have heard the only way a female can be in OA is as a registered Boy Scout leader. With todays forward thinking and ideology when is OA going to move into the future and open up to our Venture Crews?


  • #2
    Because is part of the Boy Scout program. By your logic Scouts could earn Ranger as Scouts, not Venturers.

    Comment


    • #3
      Why ... that's easy. Because that's how BSA has set it up.

      When? ... that's presuming it should

      Should? ... that's the really interesting question. IMHO, BSA is a great program but has a lot of dated, broken parts. It's almost like BSA should say we are taking two paths. Those who want to continue as is, can continue with the 2013 rules, policies, procedures and structure. But then at the same time redesign the major parts. Adopt the one unit concept. Co-ed. Advancement that overlaps less with school classroom materials.

      BSA gets stuck in the past way too much. The BSA program was outstanding in 1960 and fit the values and structure of society. But as the 1960 car of the year the Chevrolet Corvair is very dated compared to today's expectations, I really fear BSA scouting is very dated too.

      Comment


      • #4
        but Varsity Scouts are included..
        On one hand they are saying females are ok to be in OA and on the other they are saying "Females??? Never". BSA needs to wake up and realize we are WAY behind the other countries in helping our Youths become tomorrows leaders with outdated viewpoints.

        ..as to earning Ranger...well they are revamping that also..

        Comment


        • qwazse
          qwazse commented
          Editing a comment
          They are revamping Bronze, Gold, and Silver awards.

          The expert awards (Ranger, Trust, Quest, Quartermaster) are unchanged.

      • #5
        There's another thread here somewhere. But the general thinking is that the voting pool from whom a youth is elected into O/A should range from the 11 to 17 year-olds members of the unit. (In my troop, doing right by the cross-overs is critical to being elected.)

        Members of Crews do not have an 11-13 y/o constituency in their own unit.

        Regardless of the logic you choose to use, it's up to the young Arrowmen to enact change in their order. Rant here, and be sure no change will be made. Appeal to them to bring it up at NOAC and other conclaves, and perhaps you will begin to see movement on this issue via their good graces.

        Comment


        • SR540Beaver
          SR540Beaver commented
          Editing a comment
          As a former Chapter Adviser, I've facilitated a good number of unit elections. While a youth ages out of the unit at 18, the OA considers him a youth until he turns 21. So even if he is serving the unit as a registered adult, he can be elected and participate in voting until 21. So your youth membership pool and voting pool runs from 11 to 21. Crossovers can present a problem depending on when a Lodge decides to hold unit elections. It is quite possible to get crossovers two weeks ago and hold a uit election today. They simply don't know the boys they are voting on yet. When voting, you can vote yes for as many people on the ballot as you want or vote for none of them. You can also abstain from voting by not turning a ballot in. The vote count is based off of the number of ballots turned in. You must have better than 50% yes votes of the total ballots turned in to be elected. Lets say you have 10 troop members and 5 crossovers. The 5 crossovers don't really know the boys on the ballot yet, so they turn in a ballot with no one voted on. If they are not marked on the ballot, it is a no vote. So now a boy has to have 8 votes to be elected. He already has 5 no votes from the crossovers. If the crossovers do not turn in a ballot, then that leaves 10 ballots instead of 15 and they only need 6 votes to be elected. It really isn't fair to have some kid who is a model scout and has been hoping for years to be elected have his hopes dashed because kids who don't know him leave his name unchecked on the ballot. That is why they (or any scout) can abstain by not turning in a ballot that would count against a boy. We do our very best to make sure they understand how the voting works before passing out ballots. I hope that was as clear as mud. The election rules are readily available on the national OA website.

        • qwazse
          qwazse commented
          Editing a comment
          That's why our troop doesn't hold elections until summer camp. This gives plenty of opportunity for crossovers to take the measure of a candidate. (Also, that "weeds out" crossovers who never come to camp.)

          For venturers, if they were to be candidates, I would like to see some evidence that they have met the approval of younger kids whom they were serving while racking up those camping nights (e.g., girl scouts cadettes, jr. high youth group, jr. sailing club members, etc ...).

      • #6
        It think it'd be good to open it up to all types of units.

        Comment


        • #7
          Originally posted by ssullivansr View Post
          If OA is a representative of Scouters in General, please explain why Venture Crews are not included in the OA structure. We are an approved BSA program with many youth exceeding many of the programs that troops provide.
          i have heard the only way a female can be in OA is as a registered Boy Scout leader. With todays forward thinking and ideology when is OA going to move into the future and open up to our Venture Crews?
          Because The Youth Memberships has not Voted to except youth females or to amend the Membership Requirements...
          a Youth must have achieved the "First Class Rank"..Which Venture Crews do Not..
          OA is Not a Representative of Scouters in General it is an Honor Society of Boy Scouts of America. Not Cub Scouts of America or Venture Crews of America.

          Females are Eligible when They Turn 21 as Adults

          When Will it Change...Who Knows
          What Will it take to Change it...perhaps a Major Lawsuit perhaps some logical minded youths

          I have been in Favor of Allowing all females in since I was Inducted in 1980, I was Inactive when we first allowed Females in. Glad it Happened and I hope Youth Females will be allowed in soon, as they Pay Membership Dues to Boy Scouts of America and I say they are Boy Scouts even if they are Venture Crew Members


          Comment


          • #8
            I think the biggest argument coming from national is that the Boy Scout Division is from 11 through 18, while the Venturing Division is 14 through 21. While this would be a good enough reason to drop the issue, The OA allows members to be youth until 21. doesn't make a lot of sense to not allow venturing into the OA when they age out at the same age. specially when by the time the venturing meets the requirements ( whatever they may be) they could easily be 16 or 17 years old.

            Another big argument is that youth protection dosnt cover females in the OA, But I am pretty sure that there is a venturing specific YP manual that would cover it.

            What about requirements, Ventuers cant earn 1st Class. True, but they do have the bronze awards, or whatever they become anyways. And sea scouts have the Able rank. who's to say that ventuers cant meet that certain rank requirement along with the necessary campouts. What about campout requirement? Some crews don't camp, Sea scouts go sailing. Sea scouts could meet that requirement with overnight voyages and a long term cruise.

            What it would really come down to is, the youth in the crews and ships would need to make the changes to their program to meet the requirements set forth for membership. Some crews are art crews, they don't camp. So if they want to be eligible for membership. the youth would need to plan what would need to happen to be eligible for membership.

            What would need to happen would be movements on both the venturing front, and the OA front, starting at the section conclaves, and likewise venturing events, as simple as a poster. Pushing for youth members to start making waves to the higher-ups pushing the issue. is the Region chiefs start brining the subject up as the ventuers do the same. Maybe it will become an issue the national committee will look at.

            Comment


            • #9
              Found the most recent related thread ...
              http://www.scouter.com/forum/venturi...-and-venturing

              Comment


              • #10
                And this one: http://www.scouter.com/forum/order-o...-and-venturing

                Comment


                • #11
                  Two part answer -

                  Part One:
                  The OA program, as currently operated is specifically designed as a Boy Scout program. This is a BSA policy decision tied to the purpose, function, and structure of the OA. The question you’re raising has been raised for over fifty years, originally by female explorers and female Professional Scouters. Adding adult females to the program, beginning in the late 80’s, had a huge impact on the dynamic of the program. Adults are only advisers, not participants. Female program participants is a difficult fit. Ceremonies and dance are based on native American tradition and history, and only allowed so long as we respect the beliefs, traditions, and customs of the native Americans; Putting a female in full regalia, and headdress, would not go over well with the native communities we purport to honor, nor would allowing a female to participate as a fancy dancer. Additionally, the changes in YP policy, with change the structure and nature of OA events, possibly in a harmful way.

                  Part Two:
                  It is recognized that Venture scouts need a Servant Leadership program, and for that reason this question is again being informally discussed. For now, I would point you to the Corps of Discovery, a Servant Leadership pilot program designed for Venture Crews. I’m not certain the Corps is even an official pilot yet, it may be. Dr. Craig Murray of CA is a good contact, visit his web site Sage Venture.

                  The unofficial third part (my opinion):
                  If we are considering officially exploring this topic again, let’s once again explore the possibility of coed program at all levels. We are in a new, more modern era, and perhaps we should consider joining the vast majority of the works scouting community in becoming coed, and if not lets be very clear on why not, and for what benefit.

                  Comment


                  • #12
                    Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post

                    Female program participants is a difficult fit. Ceremonies and dance are based on native American tradition and history, and only allowed so long as we respect the beliefs, traditions, and customs of the native Americans; Putting a female in full regalia, and headdress, would not go over well with the native communities we purport to honor, nor would allowing a female to participate as a fancy dancer.
                    Funny our adult female members wear appropriate FULL REGALIA for females...
                    not every male member wears a headdress

                    as for dancing look at native american powwows seems plenty of women dance and even sign...
                    not every Lodge has every style of Dance...their are appropriate dance styles for females

                    Comment


                    • #13
                      looks like forum is screwy again
                      Last edited by jpstodwftexas; 06-07-2014, 01:45 AM. Reason: Double posted

                      Comment


                      • #14
                        jpstodwftexas, where are you seeing adults in regalia' this is an express violation of National OA policy. Only youth may wear regalia as part of the OA program ... period. If adults are appearing in regalia, this needs reported to the Council Executive immediately, and stopped (See Below).

                        You're correct that there are male and female dance styles, based on Nation and Band. However, to honor native tradition, we would have to have "separate but equal" programs, segregated by gender ... I don't see that flying.

                        And further discussion in GTI:
                        Members' Uniforms
                        All members attending an Order of the Arrow ceremony should wear the Order of the Arrow sash and be in correct Scout uniform. Only youth members under the age of 21 who are participating as a principal or an assistant in the ceremony are allowed to wear American Indian costumes. Youth that do not have a part in the ceremony and all adults should be in complete Scout uniform with their Order of the Arrow sash and must not be in American Indian costumes or wearing pieces of American Indian regalia.
                        I hope this helps! If you have any further questions please feel free to ask.

                        Yours in Service,
                        Ray (Ray Capp - National OA Chairman)

                        Please note adult members can neither participate as a principal, or assistant, in any OA ceremony (Including AOL, Call Outs, and the Vigil Call Out).


                        Comment


                        • #15
                          Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
                          You're correct that there are male and female dance styles, based on Nation and Band. However, to honor native tradition, we would have to have "separate but equal" programs, segregated by gender ... I don't see that flying.
                          I see co-ed youth approaching NA tribes about how a mixed-sex group should honor indigenous celebration as a positive. Many of the tribes near us are matriarchal. It might spark a good dialogue, and might engender more respect for women's roles in pre-European culture.

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