I would tell them...

Sometimes in this life you will meet people that out of jealousy and low self-esteem will break the rules or force others to break the rules for their benefit so that they can obtain what others have secured through hardwork, dedication and sometimes pure luck. While it can be infuriating to see that happen, think for a moment about the pitiful soul of that person as they go through life constantly coveting what others have and tortured by the realization that their efforts are inadequate, leading them to resort to bullying, backstabbing, trickery, theft and a host of other immoral acts. Their struggle for recognition and appreciation, at the expense of others, will forever haunt them. It is my greatest hope that your life is one of contentment and appreciation for the blessings you have received.

Thanks Semper!

I like the way you put that.

The only thing that I'm thinking is that I also need to kind of temper that with something softer for the kid involved. No. He did not earn his way in. But, he did not pitch the fit. He did not insist on being in OA. His mother did that. He will be a part of this group and with (probably) everyone knowing how he got in. The other boys were not keen on him to start with (hence the no vote), but it's really not his fault that his mom forced the issue.

The kid is only 12 years old. Hopefully he will make changes and will be a valuable member of OA. But, it's going to be hard if the other boys don't give him a chance.

I feel that I should make it clear that what the mother did was wrong but that the kid deserves a chance to prove that he can be a real member and earn his way after the fact.

The kids are not back from the trip but will be in soon. Still thinking here.

Tks much for your thoughts.

I don't know how things are run in other parts of the country?
But to the best of my knowledge the unit elections in our Council are supervised by an OA Representative from another Troop. The Ballot and the results are known only to: The SM, the OA Rep and the person that he reports.
The votes and who voted for who are not supposed to be shared.
As for "A mother from another troop had already mentioned that the "talk" was that "
This in nothing but pure out and out gossip and should be looked upon as such. In fact I think it is gossip at its very worst, it is harming a boy in our program.
Cyndi you have no choice but to ignore this completely and if possible tell the people who are doing the "Talk" that the Boy Scouts Of America and the Leaders do not take notice of the "Talk" as it is not Kind, is not Trustworthy and goes against the Boy Scout Oath and Law. You need to explain this to any Scout that would ask.
Gossip causes more harm to our program than almost anything else.
Eamonn

The mother is the SM.

Saturday, 3/19/2005: 9:57:38 PM
"A mother from another troop had already mentioned that the "talk" was that the mother of the child pitched a fit and insisted that her son be inducted."
Sunday, 3/20/2005: 8:27:53 AM
"The mother is the SM."
This is still gossip and is not the behaviour that a Scoutmaster should be displaying.
If she feels that something was done wrongly she ought to go to the people who are at fault not go gossiping to everyone and causing harm to a youth member. The fact that this person is the SM only makes it far worse.
Eamonn

Sorry, but I don't agree with the thought that this should be allowed to stand -- I believe too much in the integrity of the vote. If there were a suspicion of wrongdoing, I would contact the OA election representative who ran the unit elections usually from the local OA Chapter or Lodge. (Units are not allowed to run and report on their own elections precisely to avoid this type of thing from happening.)

But you dont have to approach it in an accusatory tone merely as trying to correct a potential mistake. Talk to the OA representative (from outside the troop) about the election. The OA rep should have a copy of the forms that were filled out at the election. Tell him/her that there might have been some confusion at the time of callouts and ask for confirmation on the names of the boys elected. You can say that there has been a rumor floating around that youre trying to resolve for the good of all involved.

If the OA rep admits to being influenced by anyone in reporting the results, he/she should be admonished and the issue needs to be elevated immediately to the SM and CC. If SM (or anyone) is guilty of violating the integrity of a vote for the benefit of her own son (or anyone else), there needs to be a serious discussion about the need for leaders to maintain the highest of standards in modeling the basics of the Scout Oath and Law. I would personally consider this grounds for removal.

If it is determined the scout should not have been called out at this time, someone needs to have a conference with him to explain there was a regrettable mistake and this wasnt his time, but hang in there because hell have many more opportunities.

-mike

Let me clarify on the mothers here.

The SM mother is the one who reportedly "pitched a fit" and had her son tapped for OA.

The second mother does not have sons qualified for OA at this time. She heard "somewhere" that the child in question was getting tapped for OA though he did not get the votes.

Since I heard the boys talking, there is no doubt in my mind that he did not get the votes. The boys who voted told the boy in question that they did not vote for him. He does not pull his share on camping trips. He can't even tie basic knots. He takes off and leaves the others with camp chores. The boys voted as charged to vote using the criteria recommended. I thought it was not to be discussed, but it was. So, they all know that the vote was disregarded.

How the word got out to another troop, I have no idea. The only place this was discussed that I know of (other than when the boys spoke together at the meeting with no adults around) was here at home. I haven't menioned this or brought it up. In fact, it never crossed my mind that there was any question about the child getting tapped at this time when he is clearly not up to speed with skills. So, it was news to me when I heard that might be the case.

In fact, that WAS the case. So, while it may be seen as a rumor, the information was correct. The boy was tapped to OA without the votes.

Unless you counted the votes then you do not know what the vote count was.

Even if you did count the votes you have no way of know who cast what vote.



The boys talking about the election, who they voted for and why the didn't vote for someone else, are completely out of line. The instructions for the elections specificially mention there is to be no discussion about the Scouts being considered for election. If these Scouts can't figure out that talking about an election in such a way violates the spirit of a secret ballot someone should take the time to explain this to them.

On the issue of the kid being called out who may or may not have been properly elected, there are possibly some options. First, if the Scout was not reported by the election team as being elected with the others, then he should not have been called out. If this is the case it needs to be brought to the attention of someone in the OA lodge. They can then determine what to do about it. If the Scout was reported as being elected, the lodge should probably still look into finding out if the proper election procedure was followed by whoever conducted the election.

Now, as to the apparent SM/mother who may have pulled some kind of stunt to get her son called out, this needs to be looked into at the unit level. If it is substantiated, then corrective action of some form would need to be taken. Obviously this is something for the Committee Chairman and Charter Organization Representative to determine how to best handle. I would suggest that if this person really did rig the results in some way, there should be some thought given to how they are living the Scout Oath and Law. It may be that a leadership change is needed.

It sounds like to me that this entire process was handled very poorly by everyone involved. It seems from the Scoutmaster on down to the Scouts this is more or less a train wreck.

Don't let this mess go unnoticed. While all you have is hearsay and gossip, someone should look into what the facts actually are.

I do have confirmation. Another SM was at the Round Table where the SM from this troop said that the election was not fair and that it was a popularity contest. She insisted that her child be called out. He was. No. I wasn't there. Yes. I trust the SM that told me when I asked straight up.

Do you think the SM or the OA person who agreed to this should be the one or ones to talk to the boys about prodedures in a secret ballot election?

This also makes me wonder why OA is conducted in a cloak of silence. It certainly seems that such matters should be out in the open if this is how things are done.

I really don't know what you mean by your last two posts.



However, let me ask you a question:

What is it that you want to see happen?

The proses works well when all the guide lines are followed and the rules are adhered too.
At the end of the election, the only people who know the outcome are the SM and the OA rep.
The votes have been cast and stands. It can not be changed.
The Boys who compared notes are out of line and have demonstrated that they need a hand understanding what Trustworthy really means.
If something is not right then it needs to be brought to the attention of the people in charge.
However information bases on second hand heresy and the word of people who are not part of the proses and little or nothing to do with the election would not carry any weight with me.
Eamonn.

As a concerned parent, instead of talking to all of the boys in the troop, and possibly making this matter worse, you should talk to your Committee Chair about your concerns. Your CC can then go to your OA Lodge with any questions & then it will be up to them to investigate.

I would stress to your sons (& any other scouts who ask you) that it is being looked into, but until any word to the contrary comes from an OFFICIAL OA SOURCE, the election, the SM's part in the election, this boy's tapping out, & his ordeal are legal & correct & anything else is to be disregarded as simply gossip.

If, down the road, the local OA Lodge decides that the election was indeed legal, you should let your sons know that the boy's OA status has been confirmed by the Lodge and all gossip & speculation to the contrary should be put to rest immediately. Doing anything else would be very much against the best intrests of all of the boys, not to mention the Scout Promise & Law.

I would like for my boys to be in a Scout troop and to be a part of OA and with some sense of pride and some reason to feel respect for those involved. Something like this would certainly not be out of the blue. By this point, a lot of other things have happened that leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth.

I was not in OA. I don't know much about the process. I'm not impressed from what I've seen so far. I don't know why I would want to sink time and effort into driving back and forth and pitching in as needed and asked. If it was something worthwhile, then I'd be glad to do whatever I could. With this introduction, I certainly have to question why I would want to be involved (on the sidelines).

If the moderator could or would dump this thread, that would probably be best. As a parent, it's none of my business. If the boys want to participate, then I'll drive. Otherwise, I suppose the program can continue on as the leaders see fit.