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  • #31
    I would love to see how a unit like this runs.......I bet all of the parents hang in the back of the room like the sports parents do.......

    How sad to take something as pure as a group of similar aged boys looking for adventure and twisting it into an adult drive advancement feast

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
      That is sad..... I don't even know what to say, I would go ahead and tighten up the requirements or make the boys met the requirements and let them call and leave. I just couldn't sign off to save my scouting job. They understand that advancement is only one method right???? Do they Eagle and leave?????
      Well, may hit Life by 13-14 and then go off and do high school and eventually try to make Eagle in the ramining 3-4 years. This is pretty much how things work in all units locally. Common problem all scoutmasters have. Standing joke really. Those who try to tighten things up get slapped down are replaced because the unit loses scouts who don't want what they perceive as the additional work. I have taken the approach that I would rather have 20 active, interested, strong scouts than 70+ where 2/3 of them are in it for the bling and then good bye. It is for that 1/3 that I stick around at all.

      Originally posted by sst3rd View Post
      Krampus, My district follows the program. I said you were living a Scoutmaster's nightmare, not that you were that nightmare. Parents should trust the Scout leaders of their son's Troop, to execute the BSA program. Your parents don't, and demand documentation for all decisions made by your Troop's adult leadership. This "culture thing" evidently is the nightmare, and your whole district operates this way. Wow, how sad. How do you have time to be a Scoutmaster, when you're too busy trying to satisfy the demands of your parents? And you're not having any fun? The stress has got to be through the roof. This isn't a Scout program. There's got to be a Troop somewhere that actually runs the BSA program. Go there, fast. I wish you the best. sst3rd
      Well, in short, we document everything well, make sure we communicate all guidelines and then, if they have an issue we have chapter and verse to point to. Thankfully I have a type A wife who does all of that (former lawyer) and so the bylaws and troop guidelines are tight as a drum and align with BSA policy. There is not much stress because I am a by the book guy (ex marine) so not an issue. I know the rules, the boys know the rules and we follow them. That said, I apply leeway when the rules (even BSA rules) run contrary to common sense and the boys have fun. We focus on boy-led stuff which po's mom and dad since they think scouting is about the adults doing all the work. My guys want to go to the moon? If they can plan it, raise the funds and build the means to get there we go. Philmont this year is 100% boy-led. I told the advisors to sit and take notes but let the guys do what they want. They did a better job than I could have done.

      Back to OA: For me I would have loved to have kept 3-4 boys back. As soon as I mentioned that I was thinking about that one of our TC members called me to complain. Wanted to know why I had the right to do that. I told them I did not think they were ready, they were too weak in camping skills. They wanted me to point to where I get that power from BSA. Hence my question to BD. I am truly interested if there is a policy or at least guidance. Barring that, I simply don't want to fight that fight. If Tommy Crappycamper wants his sash, fine. It won't mean anything to him anyway. I am fighting for that 1/3 who give a darn.

      Comment


      • #33
        As usual no one has helped you. The information you are looking for is in this publication [URL="http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/GOA-2012.pdf"]http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/GOA-2012.pdf[/URL="http://www.oa-bsa.org/resources/pubs/GOA-2012.pdf"]

        This is the guide for OA Officers and advisors. Look at Page 20 (Unit Leader Approval). It states, "To become eligible for election, a Boy Scout or Varsity Scout must be registered with the Boy Scouts of America and have the approval of his Unit Leader prior (bolded in the original) to the election. The Unit Leader must certify his Scout spirit (i.e., hius adherance to the Scout Oath and Law and active participation in unit activities). The Unit Leader must also certify that the nominee meets all specified requirements at the time of this annual election.

        It is important to note that unlike advancement criteria there is no appeal process for this certification so what the Unit Leader decides goes, and you can tell the parents to pound sand if they do not agree, or better yet refer them to the CC as it is not the SMs job to deal with the parents.

        That being said further reference is made on page 22 #4 "...who meet all eligibility requirements including attitude and participation..." I believe BSA chose the word "attitude" carefully and the Unit leader has a lot of leeway as to who has the right attitude for OA and who does not. Again, ther eis no appeal process.

        This is definitely an area where the good Unit Leader needs a spine and needes to stand up to the parents. BSA and the OA give the Unit leader a lot of discretion in this area, and it is up to the Unit leader to maintain the integrity of the OA.

        If not you, who?

        Comment


        • mozartbrau
          mozartbrau commented
          Editing a comment
          This has been helpful to me too. Thanks.

          Unfortunately I am in the same boat as Krampus in that I get no support from my Troop Committee. If I were to hold someone back without obvious behavioral or attendance issues I would be in for it with the parents and committee. I wish that were not the case. At times I feel like finding a new troop that thinks more like I do but my area also has this culture of entitlement. I'd swear half my parents (and kids) have law degrees the way they argue.

        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          Ha. Just got back a bunch of test results for my 7 year old. 99% Definitely headed to the gifted program. Explains why he is always arguing with me. The problem is he is usually right. It is really going to suck raising a teenager who actually is smarter than me and knows everything.

      • #34
        As far as "selecting" adults go, we have the opposite problem. The units know how to go about nominating an adult, but the OA advisers reject them every year. I know this has happened in our troop two years in a row as well as it happening in another troop also. Just because you send in an adult application doesn't mean that adult will be selected for OA.

        Comment


        • #35
          So a question to the group.....

          Who takes your boys to the ordeal weekend???? Well I took my boys that were elected and had been tapped out this weekend.....Looked to be the only SM that did it.

          I saw a bunch of helicopter parents this weekend while dropping my group off.....Parents carrying their son's gear, medical form and registration standing in line.....Then this morning, the parents going out to the campsite and taking down tents and carrying gear to the cars this morning.....Then the mom feeding her fat boy a mcdonalds big breakfast, never mind he just ate in the dining hall.

          I was sitting on the porch to the dining hall enjoying the circus.....I am handed a cup of coffee, Fellow i recognize from roundtable.....He was our districts chapter advisor....... He commented that a number OA candidates that can't pitch a tent and several who went home homesick.. I didn't ask about my guys, I know they are solid.....

          Soon enough my guys came out from breakfast.....Smiling and happy, Soon there was 10 scouts chatting, video games, the event, the upcoming conclave, jambo, chapter meetings. I just sat their and listened to the banter, enjoying the moment.....They carried on till their various parent said they had to go......Brotherhood, It was good to see....

          Comment


          • rjscout
            rjscout commented
            Editing a comment
            Yeah,I saw sort of the same thing when I dropped my son at his Ordeal. Parents carrying Rubbermaid totes with their son's gear. I assumed most scouts would have a backpack by this point in their scouting career. Lots of doting parents. I wondered how a scout can get elected into OA without being self-sufficient on a campout. I am interested to see how it goes when I attend my ordeal next month.

        • #36
          I would suspect that the reason you are seeing parents instead of SM’s is that after the SM’s OA application has been rejected he’s not too interested in taking the boys.

          Comment


          • Huzzar
            Huzzar commented
            Editing a comment
            I think it's the Pagan thing rather than the hat. The hat just caused her to state she belonged to a religion that her Council probably confuses with atheism.

          • Khaliela
            Khaliela commented
            Editing a comment
            My OA Application was rejected twice. The first time was back in 2007, when they still thought I was Catholic and had just presented me with the Skillin and Extra Miler Awards. The second time was in 2010 BEFORE the Wood Badge Event in June of 2011. In the decade plus that I have been in Scouting I've only known of two adults who were accepted, each from a different unit. The reason being is that our OA rep says that they are only allowed to forward two adult applications per district, based on the needs of the Lodge.

            Assume the district only has three units who complete elections and the district guys are only allowed to send in one name. Continue to assume that you have the following breakdown of Candidates:
            #1 is an A+ Scouter with a job as a Retail Manager
            #2 is a B+ Scouter with a job as a Forester
            #3 is a C- Scouter with a job as a Journalist.
            If the lodge is in need of a communications director, the forward candidate #3 and the others get rejected. Some of the units here don't submit adult applications because we have no way of knowing what the lodge needs, so have no idea who to nominate. Those who do submit application know it's a crap-shoot and don't worry about it too much.

            Why should a SM simply be a chauffeur? Since there is nothing for the SM’s to do there is no reason for them to show up and since so many applications get rejected there really isn’t a reason to see SM’s at the event at all. If all the SM is going to do is pick-up and drop-off I see no reason the parents can't do that and let the SM spend that extra time with his family?

          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            Reading the application found on the OA website....

            To be elected as an adult you really need to have a skill they want.....I was under the impression that the SM's were all automatic.....That doesn't appear to be the case any more.

            From what I observed on my scouts OA ordeal weekend.

            It is very Boy led and run....The boys did it all, from checking them in to wrist banding them, to sorting them into groups, leading them out of the dining hall the cooking crew......The adults hung back and were advisors nothing more...

            It is my opinion that the boys need scouting outside the troop with out the old SM hanging around.....


            So what do you want to do in the OA and why?????

            Maybe I am burnt out, maybe just too busy with my local unit......But I am good with bein a chauffeur for once.

        • #37
          Our scouts don't suffer fools, so we've had no problem 1. Our advancement program is "1st class when you're a 1st class scout." We're fine if that takes you 4 years. 2. We camp in a few challenging locations. If all you do is the "car campouts" you won't rack up the nights. 3. We discuss the qualifications for OA on night 2 of summer camp. Elections the next day. The younger scouts will have had 48 hours of data before they cast a ballot. It works for us. Some boys have taken 4 elections. By then they have worked on 4 different character flaws. Younger 1st class scouts get that this is no cupcake walk, and sometimes will ask to not be on the ballot. However, this does not guarantee that a boy would be a good arrow man. Life is busy, and these guys have no clue how hard it will be to dedicate time to the order.

          Comment


          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            I can't PM for some reason

            Q you guys did Dolly Sods in the past.....what loop did you take???? how about water????

        • #38
          Originally posted by Khaliela View Post
          As far as "selecting" adults go, we have the opposite problem. The units know how to go about nominating an adult, but the OA advisers reject them every year. I know this has happened in our troop two years in a row as well as it happening in another troop also. Just because you send in an adult application doesn't mean that adult will be selected for OA.
          This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If a unit has a scout elected, then the unit may nominate an adult. As of this year, for each addtional three elected scouts, another adult may be nominated. If the scoutmaster is not an arrowman and has been in that position for at least a year, he is automatically nominated. These nominations should be accepted by the chapter and lodge adviser at face value. In previous years, if at least one scout was elected then an adult could be nominated. Another adult could be nominated for each 50 active scouts in the troop.

          Now the district may also nominate a small number of adults for the OA. District nominations are completely separate from unit nominations.

          Comment


          • SR540Beaver
            SR540Beaver commented
            Editing a comment
            King Ding Dong, as I stated yesterday, the rules have changed on adult nominations. There has never been an effort to “limit” adults. The OA is a youth run organization and is designed for youth. Adults are advisers and nothing more. Adults nominated for the OA are approved by the Lodge basically on the merits of what they bring to the table in the way of resources to enable the youth. For many an adult, that means providing transportation. Don’t get me wrong, an adult still needs to meet most of the same requirements as a youth and it is still an honor to be nominated and we have all the rights and privileges of membership other than voting rights, but our purpose is different. Functioning correctly, the elected Lodge Chief and his Vice Chiefs run the Lodge. They hold regular Lodge Executive Committee meetings where they discuss business and make decisions. All Lodge functions such as Ordeals, Fellowships, camp service, etc, are planned and run by boys. Each boy in leadership has an adult adviser and when done correctly, that is all they do…..advise. It is not up to the adults to run anything. It is up to the adults to assist and provide support where needed. Adults are needed. On work days where we provide service to camps and are clearing brush, putting up fence, setting up tents, etc, it is the adults who can provide trucks, trailers, tools, etc to execute the plans the boys made. I don’t “know” of any nominated adult in my Lodge who has ever been denied. But simply selecting Joe Blow in your troop for membership in the OA because it would be a nice thing to do to honor him and get him a pocket flap to wear and knowing he has no intent of ever supporting the program is the wrong way to go. If an adult is nominated, the Lodge does have expectations that he will support the work of the Lodge. I can’t begin to tell you how frustrating it is as an Adviser to see adults nominated, complete their Ordeal and then never, ever see them again. Why is that frustrating? Because if they aren’t coming, the boys in their units aren’t coming either and they are missing out on a whole different level of scouting and leadership opportunities that would enhance their experience. We need adults, but it makes sense to limit it to adults who will be active.

          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            If everyone is a member then is stops being the National Honor society of scouting.

          • SR540Beaver
            SR540Beaver commented
            Editing a comment
            The youth are still elected by their peers for the honor. Adult nominations are approved based on their ability to facilitate the program. OA is about the youth.

        • #39
          Slight change of direction, but I was wondering how common it was for lodges to reject adult nominations from units. In our lodge, as long as the nominated adults meet the basic requirements, they are accepted. I cant recall a qualified nomination being turned down. I was surprised to read the descriptions of lodges that reject significant numbers of adults. If it makes a difference, I am from a very small council/lodge.

          Comment


          • SR540Beaver
            SR540Beaver commented
            Editing a comment
            I've not seen it in our Lodge with one exception. We have a gentleman who very much wants to be in OA. To put it politely, he is one strange duck. His troop has yet to nominate him. He attempted to claim he was nominated and tried to register for Ordeal. We contacted the SM and committee chair of his unit to ask if they had failed to turn in the paperwork and they told us he had not been nominated. So, we didn't actually reject him, but left it to his unit leadership to deal with. He didn't show up at Ordeal.

          • 00Eagle
            00Eagle commented
            Editing a comment
            I don't think it's all that common. I've been in 3 lodges (412, 104, 43) and never saw it happen. On paper every lodge has an adult selection committee to review nominated adults. In most cases a steady stream of adults is needed to serve as advisors. They can't wait for all the aged out arrowmen to return.

            The nomination process is usually rubber stamped, but I remember hearing one case on here where the lodge did kick back a lot of nominations and were then surprised no adults were nominated, as units stopped submitting paperwork just to have it rejected.
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