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  • #46
    qwaze ..
    Anyone who is Not a Registered Member of the BSA loses Membership in OA..Youth or Adult..They may rejoin without having to do another Ordeal if they reRegister with BSA and Pay their Lodge Dues and still level of membership as when they become inactive..Ordeal Brotherhood or Vigil.

    Comment


    • qwazse
      qwazse commented
      Editing a comment
      Understood, but E92 pointed out that OA may have boys who no longer are members of a troop, but since their BSA membership is current, by virtue of being in a crew or ship, they are still in the Order.

      Now maybe this is administrative oversight, or maybe noone wants to challenge a boy who went through his ordeal shows up and serves at meetings and conclaves and can pull a current membership card out of his pocket. But, it undermines the notion that the order exist solely so a boy could better serve his troop.

    • dcsimmons
      dcsimmons commented
      Editing a comment
      Yeah, I think there are election eligibility requirements (15 days/nights of camping in last two years, First Class, Scout master recommendation) and then there are membership requirements (elected, completed Ordeal, registered member of the BSA, Lodge dues paid). Venturers as members of the OA is no contradiction. They just can't be elected from Crews or Ships without also being in a Troop/Team.

  • #47
    Why can't a Youth simply "Better serve his Unit" no matter if it is a Post, Troop, Crew or Ship?

    Comment


    • EagleScout441
      EagleScout441 commented
      Editing a comment
      They are already doing that, the OA helps them do it better. OA membership is recognition of the fact that a scout is "better serving his unit." Plus those OA weekend trips are extremely fun and the HA Base opportunities through the OA are extremely valuable. Venturers just want to have the same opportunities.

  • #48
    I have abandoned my argument in favor of Venturers joining the OA now that I have been informed of this: http://www.venturingcorps.com/

    Comment


    • #49
      why re-invent the wheel... just another division amoungst scouts... No Reason to exclude them from OA...No Reason not to except Venture Crews as Boy Scouts..Simply Because They Have Females..It is Time to Allow Youth Females into OA.

      Comment


      • EagleScout441
        EagleScout441 commented
        Editing a comment
        How can it prove itself and possibly become an official organization if we don't support it and spread it? The OA started the same way.
        Last edited by EagleScout441; 08-22-2013, 07:03 PM.

      • ScoutNut
        ScoutNut commented
        Editing a comment
        I never said that it should not be supported.

        However you stated - " But why should Venturers be allowed into the OA when they have their own society that Boy Scouts/Varsity Scouts aren't allowed into? If Venturers are allowed into the OA then Boy Scouts will want to know why they aren't allowed into the Corps of Discovery? Then we would have 2 societies that let both Venturers and Boy Scouts join."

        What I said was it is a want-to-be organization that is under 1 year old. There is no way that you can say that Venturing CURRENTLY has "their own society". It might be true 10-20 years down the road, but CURRENTLY that statement is simply NOT accurate.

      • qwazse
        qwazse commented
        Editing a comment
        SN, although CoD has been operating in fits and starts over the past few years, so have most VOA's. As with everything with youth this age, there's room for optimism as long as they keep coming through the door. (Or, going out the door on the way to a super service project or activity!)

        But, more importantly, we as advisors need to be encouraging. "Here's a challenge for you: pontentially personally rewarding, high likelihood it will never get off the ground. Do you want to give it a go?" Then, hope that VOA presidents start taking over the promotion. It's just like the chief in the O/A circle stopping in front of a candidate and saying "Do you wish to seek the arrow?"

        But here's the deal: we know that there are young men and women like E441 who will pursue the sort of thing. So the question regarding the O/A is not a matter of fairness, like jpTex is posing. Rather, it's a matter of market share ...
        Should the OA continue its current somewhat arbitrary policy and risk losing the contributions, if not outright membership of a few high energy youth to start-ups who will let them participate with their sisters and girlfriends?

    • #50
      the report issued by national on the future of Venturing specifically states that Varsity would be included in the Venturing program which also includes Sea Scouts....I assume that this would mean the Varsity Teams would no longer be allowed to vote for OA candidates since they would be out of Boy Scouting...

      Comment


      • #51
        Chai,

        If varsity will fall under Venturing, will it be co-ed? LDS, which are the ones that created this program and the primary users I have had experience with, will not be happy.

        Comment


        • #52
          My daughter is a Venturer officer and a Den Chief for Webelos. Why not OA? No good answer. Corp of Discover? Say it with me people "seperate but equal".

          Comment


          • qwazse
            qwazse commented
            Editing a comment
            tgr, where are the 11-13 y.o. pre-high school youth who would participate in her election?

            Does she want to be in OA? Or, does she just want to do the great things that Arrowmen do? If she organizes her crew to spend a night under the stars and a day fasting while performing service in complete silence. All without the fussing over sashes, etc, designed for uniforms which many venturers never wear ... would that suffice?

        • #53
          While the CoD(Corps of Discovery) is pretty much the Venturing version of OA, I still can't deny the fact that OA members have advantages that Venturers don't. I can think of 2: 1. The OA is a well known throughout the BSA as a honor society whose members are the "best of the best" in their troops/teams. The CoD is fairly new, and because of that most Venturers don't even know what it is, much less the other branches of the BSA. 2. There are OA only trips at every HA base, such as the OA Trail Crew at Philmont and the OA Wilderness Voyage at Northern Tier. Because the CoD is a not an official program, they have no opportunities such as these.

          Comment


          • #54
            Again I must ask WHY Do we want to continue to Separate the Memberships of all BSA Programs, Open Arms to Youth Members both Male and Female. Set Standards that can be Obtained by Both Males and Females. Yall Afraid Women will Start being elected to all the Youth Positions? Why Have More than 1 HONOR SOCIETY in Scouting?

            Comment


            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              I like it. To the argument of fairness, you've added simplicity!

              I'm afraid that still does not make the case to the constituents who would effect change. The young arrowmen need to conclude en masse that they would be better off with female youth venturers in thier order.

          • #55
            I doubt many Youths would go against the "Old Guard" and Rebel against the Tradition yet. Look how Many Years it Took to get Cub scout Leaders and Women in OA. I get yelled at at our events because I bring things up in front of the Youths. Seems It has to be a Youth Idea only. If an adult brought it up ( ie...ME. it is to be ignored and not Considered). I understand the Youth VOTE on All issues..adults are only there to serve the Youth. My Lodge is quite tight Lipped about stuff..and Rarely has anything for Members. I have been back since September 2011 and We just had our First Fellowship in Years..We Have Winter Ordeal, Summer Ordeal, Summer Camp Call Out (Free watermelon for members and Candidates afterwards, we cut up 8 watermelons this year), what a big expense), and throw in Conclave and NOAC. I offered to get a Holiday Pot-Luck Dinner together and was told Lodge could not have it because we could not afford it. How Can you not afford a Pot-Luck Dinner where people bring Dishes? I am about ready to see about transferring to another Lodge even if it is 150 Miles away.

            Comment


            • qwazse
              qwazse commented
              Editing a comment
              It's very amusing ... (and sad on many levels) ... my old OA literature (can't remember if from lodge or national) provided ideas for events, including a dance to which girlfriends and sisters were invited, at the time it seemed to me a rather odd activity for an "elite secretive boys club". My interest in the opposite sex (or was it their interest in me?) had not really kindled, and my interest in lodge life slowly waned. Later in college I met a girl who was invited by an Eagle scout to such an activity. The impression I got from her was that she had an enjoyable evening, although she came to conclude that the Eagles were a peculiar lot.

              Anyway, I have not seen our Lodge promote co-ed activities like that ever since. I think many boy scouts have an attitude that they should keep their distance from venturers. Most of my boys are in OA to simply be of service when called upon, and although I do believe the answer in many cases would be "yes", I don't think it would even click with them to think "Hey, can I invite the girls in my crew to this project?" Maybe at the next campfire, I'll ask a few what they think.

              But even if each venturer who is currently an arrowman were to see some benefit to his lodge incorporating (even on an informal basis) the best youth from his crew, he'd have his work cut out for him pitching it in the current climate. We have a long way to go ...

            • Eagle92
              Eagle92 commented
              Editing a comment
              JP,

              I understand your pain. But there is a reason why some lodges have a youth only policy in regards to speaking at meetings: adults tend to take over. I've seen this happen, and heck had to be reminded of it myself a time or two to sit down and let the youth figure it out. Unfortunately as our society extends childhood longer and longer, I see adults do more and more for "children." Best example I can give is the mom reading her daughter's school assignments and trying to set up with me a job shadowing in order for the daughter to meet requirements for her college, yes COLLEGE (emphasis, not shouting at you, OK maybe a little shouting at the situation ) class.Best thing is this, I called the mom back, daughter answers and hands the phone to mom. Instead of just letting the daughter do the work, mom does it for her.

          • #56
            I think the point you all are missing is that the OA is a program centered around the Boy Scouts and NOT Venturing. With a crew of 85 youth at my church their interests lie in other areas, not dressing up like Indians. None of the girls or guys in our councils Venturing crews have expressed even the slightest interest in the OA. The lodge here is struggling and has been for over a decade it is poorly organized and run. Like many lodges after the Ordeal members seem to disappear, never to be seen again. In my opinion you guys should let sleeping dogs lie and not try to drag Venturing into a program that was not developed for them.

            Comment


            • #57
              Originally posted by BadenP View Post

              I think the point you all are missing is that the OA is a program centered around the Boy Scouts and NOT Venturing. With a crew of 85 youth at my church their interests lie in other areas, not dressing up like Indians. None of the girls or guys in our councils Venturing crews have expressed even the slightest interest in the OA. The lodge here is struggling and has been for over a decade it is poorly organized and run. Like many lodges after the Ordeal members seem to disappear, never to be seen again. In my opinion you guys should let sleeping dogs lie and not try to drag Venturing into a program that was not developed for them.
              No your Missing the Point. Order of the Arrow was started to keep the Older Youth involved in scouting. To Give scouts who at the time had reached the Highest Rank Time (First Class Scout) something to do. To Offer Opportunity to socialize and Serve at the Same time.


              You would make all Youths suffer based on Your poor Lodge ? I see Oa as a Whole folding because of Lack of Participation unless they start Doing stuff besides requiring Membership to WORK WORK WORK. Lodges that survive and Thrive have Fellowships..be it Movie Nights, Pizza Parties, Camping Trips, and other social Events.

              There is More to OA EVENTS than just dressing up as "INDIANS". Last SR2-3N Conclave we Had Tug-a-war, Dodge Ball, Archery, Rifle Shooting, Even shot off a Cannon. We had Banana Split Eating Contest, We had someone Bring out a Collection of King Snakes, We carved a Totem to be placed at the Camp. Yes the was a Pow Wow for the Dancers, however the was a Ice Cream social at the same time for the NonDancers. Everyone was not forced to participate in the Pow Wow. Nor was everyone forced to take part in the Ceremonies competition.

              Maybe we need to Organize a National Camping Society inside scouting for those who like to Camp and Not Dress Like Indians
              or a National BBQ Society in side for Scouting for those who like to BBQ instead of Dressing Like Indians
              or a Zoological Society for those who Like Animals instead of Dressing like Indians
              or a Civil War society for scouts who want to Dress like Soldiers instead

              or we could continue with just one Honor Society, adapt and allow the Youths to participate and Socialize. Embrace the Membership and Welcome New Membership with Fellowship, not just Hard Labor all the Time.

              National OA is always considering closing poor Lodges..there is a Reason Lodges Fail, just ask Membership who have stopped coming why they did. The biggest Reason BOREDOM

              Comment


              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                Lol. Thanks for one font size with that rant.

                I am not OA, so I do not know OA, but I can see your point. My kid likes to work, but after about 2-3 hours he is ready for something else. He also doesn't eat much, but gets real cranky when he misses a meal (so do I).

                My uncle was an Eagle and in the OA in the 60's, I remember him telling me about the 1 match and 1 egg thing for 24 hours and I asked him about it yesterday. He honestly can't remember what I he did with it, but says it might have been to light a smoke.

                If they still give the a match and an egg for 24 hours and make them work all day I can't imagine many coming back either.

              • qwazse
                qwazse commented
                Editing a comment
                KDD, that ordeal weekend is the one thing that interests our boys in OA. They eat up the opportunity for a unique personal challenge. For most of them it's not the meager rations, hard work, or night under the stars, but the 24 hours in silence that was the real challenge.

              • BadenP
                BadenP commented
                Editing a comment
                jp

                You really have it wrong, yes the OA was created to keep older boys in scouts but it did NOT work. OA has failed miserably nationwide in retention of scouts and if a survey was done nationwide you would find that less than 25% of the membership participate after their first year, that is a dismal failure by any measure. The OA just does not have the appeal it once did and except for a handful of OA zealots like yourself most lodges are struggling to survive these days. Besides poor troop programs poorly run lodge programs have headed the OA on the path to extinction which is very close to becoming reality.

            • #58
              Ordeals Vary from Lodge to Lodge.. I can Tell You I didn't get any Matches. We had to Bring Our Own Flint and Steel..I went through One of the Coldest, Wettest, and Windiest Ordeals Ever in My Lodge. Several Candidates did not prepare a Proper fire pit... So After the Third fire ..We had no Night Time Fires. And to Top it off we had Snow and Sleet all night Long. It was 15 Degrees During the Day Below 0 at Night. We ain't use to that around here

              Back then our Candidates arrived Saturday Morning 7 am Check in...8 - Work till 12... 2 Slices of Bread 1 Slice of Baloney..Work till 5...2 Slices of Bread At Dark Pre-Ordeal.... Stake out..3 Am Wake Up...1 pint milk, 2 Slices of Bread, 2 Slices Bacon, 1 Egg, 1 strip Aluminum Foil.. I feed the Bacon to the Ranger's Dog (Who slept on me all night long, help keep me warm in my ratty second hand Army feather sleep Bag)..Cracked the Egg and mixed with Milk..Breakfast was Over....4 am was morning Muster...work Began..Work till Noon..2 Slices of Bread...Work till Dark..Ordeal Ceremony and then Candidates first in Line for Dinner ( 2 Slice Of Bread and 1 Slice on Baloney sitting in Plain Sight) instead we got 20 oz. Sirloins, Largest Baked Potatoes that could be found around town, Fresh Backed Rolls, Baked Beans, Salad plus Desserts out the Whazoo..So much we were Stuffed..and Then Business Meeting

              Ordeal for Lodge Members Went like this
              Friday Night..Vigil Member Steak Dinner ( Ordeal and Brotherhood Cooked and Served) followed by Spades and Dominoes Tournaments, Cracker Barrel, Music, Camp Fire in the Fireplace in Dining Halls...Lights out Everyone Except Vigils..Who took part in the Vigil Induction Ceremonies..
              Saturday Morning Vigil Steak and Egg Breakfast..Vigils Prepared and served Newest Vigil Member first..Ordeal and Brotherhood Regular Breakfast..Helped Check in and Worked along side New Candidates..Saturday Night while Candidates were on Stake out long trail we Had Brotherhood Ceremony followed by More Fellowship and Cracker Barrel till about 11 Pm..We would rotate what is Now Called Elongomat Duty checking on the Candidates all night long.
              Sunday Morning Newest Brotherhoods got a Big Breakfast first..Work Along side Candidates..

              Our Lodge was packed..
              In addition we had Camping Trips Together, Monthly Fellowships, We Had Horseshoes, Domino, Spades, Hearts Tournaments etc. We Went to Conclaves went to NOAC (well those that Could Afford it), We had a great big "Tap Out" (now called "Call Out") Ring at the Camp..Now Nothing.. First Fellowship in Years was in September. They Resist trying anything it seems.

              Comment


              • #59
                BadenP What am I wrong about..Why OA was Created? Retention is not what we were talking about. I got a Long long rant on that issue itself.
                Why is OA having problems...Boredom..Lack of Opportunity..Failure to embrace change. Same as Boy Scouts of America.
                Why Keep segmenting Membership even More?

                Comment


                • qwazse
                  qwazse commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I don't think retention is the issue. (By the percentages venturing is the fastest declining division.)
                  I do think there is a lot to be learned about the female side of Indian lore. Many of the tribes around here were/are matriarchal. So much so, that European women, when captured in raids, often retained their new-found Native American identity. But, because lodges don't recruit from girl scouts or venturing, they miss out on young people discovering that aspect of our indigenous cultures.

                • EagleScout441
                  EagleScout441 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Interesting observation qwazse.

              • #60
                jp and qwasze, You both still don't get it, the OA has NOTHING to offer or attract Venturers male or female. OA was meant for a specific purpose in the Boy Scout program only. I can assure you that none of the female Venturers in our council have even a slight desire to join the OA. You guys are way off base thinking it has anything to offer Venturing. So you boys go on playing Indian as the OA continues to diminish nationwide and lodges continue to fold as interest in the OA by all scouts continues to rapidly diminish each year. Including Venturing is NOT going to save it.

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