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  • #31
    The FYFC boys in your troop don't run for OA? Why not?
    "Jr. High boys who disrespect older boys and boys who aren't in their "special clique" have not got elected.The boys who command the respect same-age AND different-age peers, they get elected." Sounds to me like you have 1. a problem with respect in your troop and 2. boys who won't stand up for themselves. And if "special cliques" have formed in your troop, than the patrols need to be rearranged so that the "clique" members are in different patrols. I assume you are in a larger troop, my troop has about 15 that regularly attend and we don't have any problems like that. "The only venturers who are highly experienced and more mature, were the ones who are also boy scouts and about half of those who are also girl scouts" It is true that former Boy Scouts in the Ventures are, many times, more mature. But many former Boy Scouts now in Ventures are not more mature, I have met a now Venturing Eagle Scout who had the maturity of a 2nd year. I have also met several female youth Venturers who are much more mature than most Boy Scouts, who had no experience in the Girl Scouts.. Maturity level varies from person to person. They have more experience because they have had the opportunity to camp for 3 years before joining Ventures.
    If Venture Crews don't have that "necessary" younger peer group, why not have the adults pick new members, they are usually(at least in my troop) sitting on the side lines just watching to make sure we aren't hurting ourselves. If anyone would know who has the most experience and displays the most scout spirit it would be them.
    PS Thanks for correcting me on the camping requirement, it's 15 days not 10.

    Comment


    • qwazse
      qwazse commented
      Editing a comment
      Not sure why FCFY's tend not to run for OA. Maybe because there are so few of them in our troop and they see those older boys running after they took 4 years to get to FC, and that intimidates them. One boy, who I thought would have made a great candidate quit scouting to devote more time to his video games (really!) so he never came to camp that 2nd year.

      Our troop is larger than yours and has kids with behavioral disorders. Actually, many of those boys later tell me that the troop (along with junior ROTC) was the solution to those problems. Not getting elected for the 3rd time in a row was definitely the wake-up-call one boy needed. From then on, any foul comment from him I would reply "And you wonder why ...?" No need to fill in the blank, he knew exactly what I meant.

      You should dive into some of our old patrol method threads to see all the different ways these cliques are handled.

      We must have met the same immature Eagle scout, several times over! There are always exceptions to the rules. But, I've seen a lot of crews besides my own in the past six years, and I gotta say there are very few who aren't already boy scouts who would meet criteria for arrowmen. So our question boils down to a very small number. That in itself isn't a reason to maintain the current policy. It just gives us a feel of the magnitude of the problem.

      Why not make the adult leader's choice the only requirement? I think it's a matter of pride among the OA advisors that their youth are elected by a wide range of their peers. Nobody will buy into a double standard. So there will have to be a way that a venturer can get that "360 evaluation" that the average 1st class scout gets when he comes up for election.
      Last edited by qwazse; 08-08-2013, 12:41 PM.

    • EagleScout441
      EagleScout441 commented
      Editing a comment
      Maybe the new rank/recognition system will have a First Class equivalent and will serve as the requirement for Venturers being elected into the OA.

  • #32
    The OA does not have to come up with a better reason for not allowing Venturing youth as members as they rules in place suffice. If one wants strives to become an arrowmen, he needs to join one of the BSA programs that allow it. I am not anti-Venturing, my daughter is a member of a crew, and I have met many young women who I think would make fine additions to The Order.

    Comment


    • #33
      Their rules for not letting Ventures into the OA don't make any sense: 1. They don't let Ventures in because they don't let Ventures in. 2. Ventures don't earn First Class. First class is basic camping skills, Ventures, Sea Scouts, Boy Scouts, and Varsity Scouts all learn these basic camping skills(mainly aquatic for Sea Scouts though), Sea Scouts and Ventures just don't learn them for the rank of First Class. In reality, one of their main reasons is probably female youth members.

      Comment


      • gsdad
        gsdad commented
        Editing a comment
        The don't make any sense to you because you don't agree with them. Venturing and Boy Scouting are two seperate divisions of the BSA, each have different rules, different oathes(for now), oppotunites, and activities afforded to them. The OA just happens to be part of the Boy Scouting program as a youth, and not part of Venturing. It is easy to blame it on the fact there are female Venturers, but it could be coincidental.

        The OA is not a box to check and move on to the next thing. Are you an Arrowman?
        Last edited by gsdad; 08-08-2013, 12:52 PM.

      • EagleScout441
        EagleScout441 commented
        Editing a comment
        "Venturing and Boy Scouting are two seperate divisions of the BSA"
        So are Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts and yet they both have OA elections.
        "It is easy to blame it on the fact there are female Venturers, but it could be coincidental."
        Is it also coincidental that Varsity Scouts is also an all male system?
        "The OA is not a box to check and move on to the next thing. Are you an Arrowman?"
        Yes, I am currently an active Arrowman who will be attending the OA Fall Fellowship of my council. I attended Kodiak Leadership Training, also known as the Kodiak Challenge, this past summer. It is a Venturing camp that let Boy Scout attend this year, having heard what Ventures have to say about the OA is what brought me to my position in this debate. What do you mean by "a box to check and move on"?

    • #34
      Well, FWIW, the OA was designed and is an honor society of Boy Scout campers. One of the goals is to use the program as a way to keep older Boy Scouts engaged with their Troop and their Council camps. Let's review the perfect world strategy here. A young man joins a troop at age 11. He spends a year or so working on T21 requirements, probably spends his second year at summer camp before he becomes eligible to stand for a fall or spring election. Maybe he gets elected, probably not, spends a third year at summer camp mentoring younger scouts. Stands for election again gets elected by his peers. Now there is a hook to keep him coming back to his summer camp. Instead of being focused on advancement, he gets to be focused on cool older-scout stuff. Building ceremonial fires, being a ceremonialist, working on camp projects, being the generally cool HS kids that the older kids look up to.

      So, we know you support electing venturers, but that's not good enough to illicit a change. If you want to see things change then explain how electing venturers to the OA is going to supporting the mission of the OA and improve my lodge?

      Comment


      • #35
        "the OA was designed and is an honor society of Boy Scout campers"
        1. OA is considered Scouting's Honor Society 2. Varsity Scouts are also allowed into the OA.
        "how electing venturers to the OA is going to supporting the mission of the OA and improve my lodge?"
        Venturers are older and, for the most part, more experienced than the average Boy Scout. Having Venturers in your lodge will give you better leadership, opinions and views of scouts from another branch of scouting, higher attendance, co-ed membership, and scouts with more high adventure experience, since that is what is Venturing is about, high adventure.

        Comment


        • EagleScout441
          EagleScout441 commented
          Editing a comment
          I am currently/technically not a member of Venturing, but I did spend a week at Kodiak Leadership Training(Kodiak Challenge), a Venturing Camp which let Boy Scouts in this year. I just found a good crew to join a couple weeks ago but I haven't had a chance to make my membership official. Hearing what Ventures have to say about the OA at Kodiak is what brought me to my position in this debate. Now, at the camp most of the Venturers seemed to be HA(High Adventure) oriented, rappelling, whitewater rafting, etc., but as emb021 said in the "Starting a New Venturing Program" thread:
          "Venturing crews will fall into one of 5 categories: outdoors, arts/hobbies, sports, youth ministries (basically church youth groups), or Sea Scouts. When one speaks of "high adventure", its usually some of the outdoor crews, maybe also Sea Scouts.
          Even then, the types of crews can be mindboggling to those not open to the possibilities. I know of role play game crews, anime crews, SAR crews, outdoor crews, scuba crews, sailing crews, music crews, soccer crews, church youth group crews, WWII re-enactment crews, Civil war re-enactment crews, mountainman/frontiersman crews and more."
          So you're right about that, that is one of the flaws in my argument, many Venture Crews are vastly different compared to other crews. My view of Venturers is what I've seen in my council. Highly willing to serve and highly experienced scouts who love the outdoors, that is what I saw.
          How will allowing Venturers into the OA support and improve your lodge? Let's say they only allow outdoor crews to have elections. Outdoor crews are basically upgraded Boy Scouts, that's what I have seen. Letting them in gives you older and, in many cases, more experienced scouts. HA seems to be one of the focuses of outdoor crews.
          Just like the BSA has its divisions, Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Venturing, and Sea Scouts, Venturing has its own divisions, but the scouts choose for themselves what the theme of their "division" will be.

        • Tokala
          Tokala commented
          Editing a comment
          "Outdoor crews are basically upgraded Boy Scouts, that's what I have seen. Letting them in gives you older and, in many cases, more experienced scouts. "

          That is contrary to what I find in my Council. The vast majority of Boy Scouts exhibit much better Scouting skills, maturity and leadership. Now, that doesn't meant that there are not similar youth in Crews.

          I think you have to go back to when the OA was first added to the BSA and placed under the Boy Scout Program Group to find the reasons why it is for Boy Scouts only. Boy Scouts have ranks and advancement. Venturing has awards. It's a technical, verbal difference, but in the home office in Texas it is a huge difference. It will be interesting to see if there are any changes when Venturing goes through it's remodeling in 2014.

        • EagleScout441
          EagleScout441 commented
          Editing a comment
          The OA is a Boy Scout program but it is also a Varsity Scout program, under the revisions coming in 2014 Varsity Scouts "for membership purposes" will be classified as Venturers as well.

      • #36
        I have to agree with Eagle 441 the OA is for and should only be for boy scouts, Venturing is not a good fit for any lodge, except maybe for those few crews that are run just like a boy scout troop and not a crew. Venturing has its own unique emphasis and trajectory and that's the way it should be. Since National has set into motion a whole new program for next year( see the Venturing being killed by National thread) who knows what is going to happen.

        Comment


        • EagleScout441
          EagleScout441 commented
          Editing a comment
          Maybe you read my posts wrong, I am completely in favor Venturers being elected into the OA, not against it. And I'm hoping that the new rank/recognition system will have some sort of First Class equivalent to help the Venturers get into the OA.

      • #37
        Here's a question:

        If a boy leaves scouting, does he loose his membership in O/A? (Considering some of the machinations of our soon-to-be-former chartered organizations, this may be relevant to more than venturers.)
        If instead of multiple registration, a boy transfers to a crew (like E441 was thinking of doing, but maybe we'll talk him out of it ) does he get to retain his membership?

        Y'all get where I'm going with this.

        Comment


        • EagleScout441
          EagleScout441 commented
          Editing a comment
          College Scouting Reserve:
          http://listserv.tcu.edu/cgi-bin/wa.e...s-l&D=0&P=2803
          It is a way for scouts to stay involved while going to college and have little time for scouting or the OA. They aren't registered with any unit or district but instead with the council alone.

        • qwazse
          qwazse commented
          Editing a comment
          So if a boy transfers from a troop to a crew, does he lose his OA membership?
          If so, how would you enforce it, and has anyone tried?
          If not, then do we have a precedent of allowing venturers to be arrowmen?

        • EagleScout441
          EagleScout441 commented
          Editing a comment
          Qwazse wrote:
          "So if a boy transfers from a troop to a crew, does he lose his OA membership?"
          No, he does not.
          "If not, then do we have a precedent of allowing venturers to be arrowmen?"
          Technically. If a Venture wants to be a arrowman he has to be elected as a Boy Scout or a Varsity Scout.
          If a scout has dual membership with Venturing and Boy Scouts at the time of OA elections is he still eligible even though he is a Venturer?

      • #38
        Quazse,

        Once you become an Arrowman, as long as you maintain your registration in the BSA and pay your lodge dues, you are active in the OA. I'll give some examples.

        1) I am a registered CS leader, and am active with the OA. I got in as a youth a kept at it.

        2) A Sea Scout Ship I joined was created by the OA lodge for the purpose of staffing our HA sea base. Only unit I ever knew of that had everyone, youth and adults, as Vigil Honor members.

        3) I have friends who are registered with the summer camp Venturing Crew who are also Arrowmen,

        Comment


        • EagleScout441
          EagleScout441 commented
          Editing a comment
          I think the question is whether or not a youth would have to be registered to a unit, whether it be a Venturing, Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Sea Scout unit, in order to continue being a OA member.

        • qwazse
          qwazse commented
          Editing a comment
          Thanks E92. What I'm trying to fish for here is precedent where the OA considers a youth who was not member of a troop was still retained as an Arrowman. So, were you are any of your youth ship mates or any of the young summer camp crew *not* registered with a troop?

        • Eagle92
          Eagle92 commented
          Editing a comment
          144,
          Not to be a pain, but what is your definition of "Youth?" Smile

          If by "Youth" you mean someone under the age of 18, then yes they have to be registered with troop, ship, team, or crew.

          If by "Youth" you mean someone under 21, which is what the OA considers "youth." The above applies AND 18-20 can also be registered as an Assistant Den Leader, or on the District Committee, specifically as a Merit Badge Counselor or as a College Scouter Reserve ( position code 92 if memory serves compared to Unit College Scouter Reserve which is 92U, again if memory serves.

          Qwazse,

          Yep I know folks who were not registered with a troop, mostly with Crews but one guy duel registered with a crew and ship, retain OA membership. BUT all got in the OA as youth in a troop

      • #39
        The above comments bring up another issue. Why is it that OA considers under 21 members to be "youth" when the Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts consider over 18 members to be "adults"? A Boy Scout can be an adult in his troop but when he goes to OA events he's now a youth again. If a Boy Scout is between 18-21 how is he elected? He is not considered a youth in the troop but he also isn't considered an adult in the OA. While Venturing/Sea Scouts(if you consider them to be separate) have youth members up to 21. They're trying to keep "youth" Venturers from joining the OA as adults.

        Comment


        • #40
          441,

          Good question, I don't know. EMB can You Help? I am going to assume, and you know what can happen when you do that that it goes back to before the 1980s if memory serves me, when MALE Explorers could be elected into the OA still.

          Comment


          • #41
            WOW how some people forget History of Scouts and can't put two and two together and can't come up with 4.
            Try Connecting the Dots maybe or Maybe some Scouting History Lessons are in Order
            Boy Scouts created and In their original conceptions, Life Scout, Star Scout(Life preceded Star until 1924) and Eagle Scout were not ranks, but part of the merit badge system that recognized Scouts who had earned a specified number of merit badges. Eagle Scout was awarded to any First Class Scout who had earned 21 merit badges.

            Order of the Arrow was Created in 1915...and Membership Requirements remain the same today as they Did in 1915...They required the Youth Membership to have Obtained the HIGHEST RANK POSSIBLE in 1915... rank requirement of First Class.

            Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts ( LDS VERSION OF A BOY SCOUT) are the same program basically.

            The "Order of the Arrow" is the honor society of the Boy Scouts of America, intended to recognize older scouts in their teens who best exemplify the scout virtues of cheerful service, camping, and leadership. It was not nor is it a CAMPING SOCIETY

            Explorers/Venture Crews did not exist back then..have ya connected the Dots Yet
            BOY SCOUTS have resisted Change..

            Should Today's OA require it Youth Membership also Achieve the Highest Rank. Based on the history of having to have acheived the highest Rank possible back then
            Since Explorers and Venture Crews are not Considered "Boy Scouts" should they have to pay "Boy Scout Registration Fees" to the "BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA"
            Why are Cub Scouts and Venture Crews Required to Learn the BOY SCOUT OATH AND THE SCOUT LAW Next year...Will Females be EXEMPT from Those Requirements since they Are not Allowed to be Elected into OA?

            Comment


            • dcsimmons
              dcsimmons commented
              Editing a comment
              My grandma used to tell me I could catch more flies with honey than with vinegar . The answer to why are cub scouts and venturing crews picking up the scout oath and law is that it is consistent with the mission of the BSA which is to install the values of the Scout Oath and Law in the participants. It's many things but hardly stupid. FWIW, I don't believe there is an organization called the Girl Scouts of America. There is an organization called the Girl Scouts of the USA; they are a totally separate organization than the BSA. The only thing they share are the name scouts and America.

            • EagleScout441
              EagleScout441 commented
              Editing a comment
              GSUSA is the female scouting organization of the USA, it is basically the same as the Boy Scouts other than the fact that it is all female.

            • EagleScout441
              EagleScout441 commented
              Editing a comment
              I've also seen GSUSA troops doing trips/outings with BSA troops.

          • #42
            "Explorers/Venture Crews did not exist back then.."

            With all due respect, SEA SCOUTS, which was called Sea Exploring in my youth and is part of Venturing today, was around when the OA was formed. Sea Scouts is the 2nd oldest program in the BSA, being started in 1912. OA, while founded in 1915, 3 years AFTER Sea Scouts, did not become an official program of the BSA until the 1940s if memory serves.

            Comment


            • #43
              Sea Scouting is the BSA's implementation of the Sea Scout program, initially developed in 1910 by Warington Baden-Powell in England. The founders of Sea Scouting in the United States are Arthur A. Carey of Waltham, Massachusetts and Charles T. Longstreth of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Both leaders independently established Sea Scout groups in the summer of 1912. This accomplishment was recorded in the inaugural issue of Scouting. They Originated outside of Scouting, They do not use the Same Rank system as the Boy Scouts.

              When National revised the Explorer program and created the Exploring program in 1959, it purposely left the Sea Explorer program alone to see how it operated along side the new Exploring program. In 1965, they decided to make some changes to Sea Exploring, as embodied in a new edition of the Sea Exploring Manual. This rollout was originally planned for October 15, 1965, but was later extended to March 15, 1966.
              With the establishment of the Exploring Division in 1969, William Lidderdale was named the first Director of Sea Exploring since 1935. Also in 1969, Sea Explorers would allow girls, usually Mariner Girl Scouts, to participate as guests with Sea Explorer Ships. In 1971, with the rest of the new Exploring program, Sea Explorers would go fully co-ed.
              • Wearing of OA Lodge flaps is not allowed on Sea Scout uniforms (though some do wear them).

              Comment


              • #44
                The first of the older boy, or "Senior Scout", programs created was Sea Scouts with a manual written by B-P's older brother. This program was adopted early on by the BSA in 1912. Later on, other programs were added in the US, most under the umbrella of the Senior Scout program of the 1935 and afterwards.
                In researching the needs of older youth, the BSA made changes to the Senior Scout programs over the years. The Senior Scout programs of the 1930s and 40s gave way to the Explorer programs of the 50s. Further research lead to the Explorers of the 50s giving way to the Exploring program in the 60s. In the 70s Exploring went co-ed. Programs came and went to meet the needs of high school and college age youth. Most recently, Exploring was split into two separate programs: LFL/Exploring and Venturing.

                Comment


                • #45
                  DCsimmons Early BSA LEader West fiercely defended the use of the term Scout and the right to market Scouting merchandise.
                  The organization's original name was the Girl Guides of America. In 1913, it was changed to the Girl Scouts of the United States and the organization was incorporated in 1915.The name was finally changed to the Girl Scouts of the United States of America in 1947. The organization was given a congressional charter on March 16, 1950. West Sued the Girl Scouts and lost over the use of Word SCOUTS

                  Comment

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