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  • #31
    I took my scouts that got elected to another districts spring camporee to get tapped out last weekend......Our district did not have a spring camporee and our chapter did not hold a tap out.....

    Checked with the lodge chief and he said it would be fine......


    My point is this ain't cub scouting..... let the boys run the program even the lodge.......

    If you feel compelled become your chapter adult advisor and fix it from within......Not just do a ceremony for your boys as an outsider. Helicopter scouting at its finest.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
      I took my scouts that got elected to another districts spring camporee to get tapped out last weekend......Our district did not have a spring camporee and our chapter did not hold a tap out..... Checked with the lodge chief and he said it would be fine...... My point is this ain't cub scouting..... let the boys run the program even the lodge....... If you feel compelled become your chapter adult advisor and fix it from within......Not just do a ceremony for your boys as an outsider. Helicopter scouting at its finest.
      So to your points:
      - Tried all other Districts and even other councils locally, no one is having a tap out that we can make.
      - Have talked with the Lodge chief (and Chapter Advisor) until I was blue in the face and he simply says "tough luck". So much for working with adults.
      - Checked with the youth lead in the Lodge and he is fine with doing a cermony for us, the ADULT won't let him. Again, adults getting in the way.
      - Checked with the Lodge Advisor (who runs many chapters) and he said the Chapter Advisor was being silly and that they should do the ceremony for us.
      - Tap out teams come from units like mine all the time and compete locally, regionally and nationally. Many times they put on their own unit's events, so this is nothing our of the ordinary.
      - The solution I landed on was 1) build a good relationship with the Lodge Advisor, 2) am building a tap out team to compete nationally, 3) have increased interest in the OA within my unit, 4) have increased the interest of the Arrowmen in my unit to become more involved in the OA, 5) have further earned the respect of my unit by sticking up for the boys when I felt we were right.

      So in the end I accomplished what was right for the boys AND had teh boys involved in the process. Not sure what you mean by "helicopter scouting" but if that is what I did I will take that any day over sitting on my butt and letting some adult on a power trip take a Scouting memory away from my boys.

      Comment


      • Basementdweller
        Basementdweller commented
        Editing a comment
        So what your saying is the OA tap out ceremony is less important than what ever else is scheduled??????? Seems to me if it really mattered to the scouts they would adjust their schedule since you already told them they were elected. When the OA folks handed me the pink sheet from our election, they told me the results were to be kept secret.


        Yes helicopter scouting.......blades beating smothering the scouts on their journey. Hovering directly over them micromanaging their scouting careers.........Making sure they have cub scout style advancement ceremonies........

        So is your Son one of the boys missing the tap out???????

    • #33
      Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
      So what your saying is the OA tap out ceremony is less important than what ever else is scheduled??????? Seems to me if it really mattered to the scouts they would adjust their schedule since you already told them they were elected.
      No. What I am saying is that THE LODGE had only one tap out scheduled at camporee. My guys could not attend. Let the the LODGE know that months in advance. Their reply was "tough luck". *I* -- working with my Scouts -- offered the Lodge other options, all of which were viable options that had been used in the past, only for them to say "tough luck". Summer camp tap out is not an option for my guys, period. Yes our summer camp will offer it but since all of my guys are going to Philmont they cannot afford to attend both. So, having explored ALL option given to me by the LODGE, I am stuck with two choices: 1) Force guys to go to summer camp they cannot afford, or 2) not have a tap out.

      Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
      When the OA folks handed me the pink sheet from our election, they told me the results were to be kept secret.
      Yeah, and we do keep them secret. But I also asked the OA team lead if I can notify the parents and ask them to keep the secret -- simply because trying to arrange the schedules of 10+ guys is next to impossible. The OA team told me, "Sure. Parents are usually informed so they can get the Scouts to the event." While many Councils do tap out at camporee, not all of them do. So that's why parents are told. My dad was told all those years ago when I was elected, so not so sure telling parents is a new thing.

      Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
      Yes helicopter scouting.......blades beating smothering the scouts on their journey. Hovering directly over them micromanaging their scouting careers.........Making sure they have cub scout style advancement ceremonies........ So is your Son one of the boys missing the tap out???????
      So are you saying that *I* am doing that? If so you could not be further from the mark. I am trying to make sure my Scouts don't miss out on something just because an adult is on a power trip and does not want to step out of his mold. Other Lodges have told me they provide the very service I am asking for. Other units have told me they have tap out teams, which are part of their Lodge, that do other unit and their own tap outs. So if I was asking for something that did not exist I could see your consternation. But as I have said repeatedly in this thread, my solution is based on practices in other Lodges. Heck, my own Lodge used to do this very service before Mr. X took over and started to run things like 1939 Germany. Hyperbole? Sure! But after months of adults getting in the way, I am working WITH my boys to show them how to work the system in their favor.

      And no, for the record, my kid is not one of the boys. I get your implication -- I am doing this because my son is missing out on something. Not sure why you have such a bee in your bonnet on this. My guys want to be active in OA. My guys want to form a tap out and ordeal team. My guys do not want to miss their tap out. My guys were unable to attend the *one* Lodge tap out. My guys know that other Lodges (and their own Lodge used to) provide tap outs for units who could not make the planned tap out. My guys know that an adult is on a power trip and rather than helping them with these things -- which is what OA is partially about anyway -- this same person simply likes to say no.

      So *I* am teaching my guys that sometimes in Scouting you run into adults who have given up, don't care to do anything, don't care to help and will be road blocks to their success....and showing them how to handle such situations using the system. This is a life lesson for them and, frankly, what an ASM is for.

      I am not looking for your blessing on what I am doing. I am merely posting here so other adult leaders who may encouter such entrenched adults within BSA will know that there are options available to them that the BSA condones and supports, and so they will know that they can overcome an obstacle when someone says "no" when BSA actually says "yes". I think that's what they call leadership.

      Comment


      • #34
        While Call Out Ceremonies can be impressive and do publicly acknowledge who was elected into the OA, the Ordeal is the important ceremony, as it tests you and makes you a member. A candidate does not need to have gone through a Call Out Ceremony in order to go to the Ordeal. I missed out on the last chance my old lodge could do a legal Tap Out Ceremony at camporee because I was sick. While I was a little ticked at missing it, especially since a year later national banned them because some ceremonialists were going overboard and it was considered child abuse, in some jurisdictions, I was not prevented from attending the Ordeal.

        In regards to parent being at ceremonies, I do not see what the big deal is. My folks never came to my OA ceremonies, and I do not remember parents coming out to camporee to see their sons get tapped out.

        And I don't get parents wanting to see the Ordeal ceremony, bringing the grandparents and younger siblings, and future Scouts, to the ceremony. Major problems when we had to kick out the grandparents and brother fromt eh ceremony ring, and even more ticked off when they tried to video record it. Wish the folks would not have attended as they did ruin it for the folks going through teh Ordeal who were not their son, i.e. everyone else.

        But I do know how difficult it can be to say NO. We had one mother, who was also an assoc. adviser, who wanted to watch the Ordeal when her son did it, and was upset that husband and Dad-in-law, would be in attendance since they were members. I was not about to get involved in that do
        mestic dispute.

        Comment


        • #35
          Ya MB

          whose on the adult power trip.

          I think your stepping way over the line on this.....


          So far we have three of us telling you don't do it.

          Your taking a council/district level thing and bringing it to the troop level......It was not intended to be that way......



          They way I view the OA is the next step in scouting for the youth. They are beginning to spread their wings and experience life beyond the microsociety of the troop. I am excited for my boys...All of them have registered for the Ordeal, I am going to drive them out friday night and bring them back sunday morning.

          Comment


          • Scouter99
            Scouter99 commented
            Editing a comment
            I hope by "I" you meant you and your second adult.

          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            Nope it was I and if your eluding that it violates YPT you are incorrect, no one on one contact.....

        • #36
          Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
          Ya MB whose on the adult power trip. I think your stepping way over the line on this..... So far we have three of us telling you don't do it. Your taking a council/district level thing and bringing it to the troop level......It was not intended to be that way...... They way I view the OA is the next step in scouting for the youth. They are beginning to spread their wings and experience life beyond the microsociety of the troop. I am excited for my boys...All of them have registered for the Ordeal, I am going to drive them out friday night and bring them back sunday morning.
          And what you are missing is actually the point of my post, so let me say it very slowly for you: What I am doing is 1) asking for a service that is SUPPOSED to be offered by our Lodge, 2) is using the channels and lines of communication AND THE PROCESS ESTABLISHED for addressing issues like this, 3) trying to put together an OA ceremony team in my troop (which is a needed and encouraged function) to help the district and Lodge. You seem to be confusing the tap out ceremony with the ordeal. My guys will still do ordeal.

          Sorry you cannot grasp what is going on here. Maybe your lodge is different. However, the folks *I* am talking to in my lodge are telling me that this lodge advisor is very much on a power trip, is NOT providing the services that have been provided in the past historically, is doing nothing to promote the addition of new ceremony teams and is basically running the lodge from the adult level and NOT allowing the boys to run it. I am trying to change that if I can and my boys are involved in this process.

          The fact you see that as me being on the power trip is your problem.

          Comment


          • #37
            Originally posted by qwazse View Post
            MB, what bothers me about your lodge is that you haven't mentioned the *lodge chief*. Your young arrowmen need to give him a call and let him know that they would like to provide this service for your troop an any others as time allows. Frankly, this whole conversation should be between the youth, and you, your "expert scouter", and the advisor need to take a step back, encourage communication on the youth level, and support whatever decision the Chief and his officers approve. Chances are, your boys will like the results, and they don't, they can suck it up for now and run for office next year. If either you or the advisor find yourselves getting in the way of this, you both need to find a half-hour at a nice coffee shop and sit and chill for awhile.
            Done that. The advisor basically overrode the youth leadership. I *only* step in when all avenues of the youth communication loop have been exhausted or I see a someone not acting in the best interest of the youth. I was on the sidelines of this until my guys came to me asking for help. After hearing what transpired I stepped in. As I said below, the youth on all sides want to do this. We just have an entrenched adult on a powertrip here. Thankfully, he's been overridden and the services that should be offered are being offered again. This ain't my first rodeo, so I know when to step back and when to step in.

            Comment


            • Krampus
              Krampus commented
              Editing a comment
              Agree with Wakib. Sounds like you did all you could and taught your scouts along the way. Well done.

          • #38
            MB: It appears that you did the right thing. The train is back on the tracks. Not sure why some other posters want to read-in something wrong into this. When kids who really want to do something positive with Scouting hit a brick wall, sometimes it takes the man or woman to toss a stick of dynamite at the wall so the kids can proceed unhindered. We all know that most of the time the role of the adult Arrowman should be very limited. I love going to OA functions because I can turn our Scouts over to the Lodge and sit back and have some "ME" time for a change. But we are still bound to our duty to the Obligation and Admonition, which means when the situation calls for it we need to help create opportunities for the youth to do their thing.

            Comment


            • #39
              Here is from the first post in the thread
              MB says

              'We have a few Scouts who could not make our District's tap out this year (mandatory band thing). They are not going to summer camp this year because they are doing NT and it is too expensive for them to do both. District is not doing any unit-based tap outs but the boys really don't want to miss out on the tap out ceremony."

              Band, football, wrestling and life happen, I contend the boys could attend summer camp tap out night or another districts tap out ceremony instead of holding a unit specific tap out ceremony and I don't disagree with the Chapter Adult advisor at not wanting to set a precident for doing it at a unit level. It was never intended to be unit based.

              The service is offered by the lodge, I am sorry it doesn't fit your youths schedule. What happens if the ordeal doesn't fit their schedule??? gonna do a unit level ordeal????

              Comment


              • Krampus
                Krampus commented
                Editing a comment
                Ok, I will take a crack at this. BD, you simply cannot read. Or maybe it is comprehension that is the issue. Did you miss the part where MB said that the unit-based service was something his lodge used to provide? Did you miss the fact that his scouts and he went through the proper channels to request this service? Did you miss the part where the scout in charge of the lodge said yes to their request by adult advisor said no? Did you miss the part where the higher level adult across all the lodges was also p.o.'d at the local loadge adult for not providing the service as requested? Did you miss the part where MB's own scouts offered to organize and form an ordeal team to assist the lodge in future with ordeal and other such unit based ceremonies?

                Each lodge is different. Your inability to comprehend what he is saying is nothing short of silly. Unless you know him personally you have no clue whether or not his district or council offer summer tap outs. Guess what? Many do not! What should he do? Drive 9 hours at great expense to get something that is offered by his lodge locally? You are a great one to throw around money and elitism when it rears it's head to your unit, but when someone else tries the low cost approach and follows the boy-led principles you get combative with them?

                Seriously, try reading slowly and perhaps more than once. The fact you wrote this, "I don't disagree with the Chapter Adult advisor at not wanting to set a precident for doing it at a unit level. It was never intended to be unit based" shows you did not understand a single thing MB posted. So go back and re-read what he wrote before you get all indignant.

                Or are you p.o.'d because his unit might be able to afford to outfit an OA team (not cheap) and you see this as some sort of class battle? Rhetorical question. I think I know the answer.

              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                The story changed significantly from its initial telling.....

                I could careless......Just interesting how the story changed.

                I find it interesting that the boys want to be part of a ceremony team and something they have not experienced first hand. So how do the boys know they want to join the ceremony team???? whose idea is that???? probably not the boys.

                So explain to me again how unit level call out ceremonies are low cost, So what happens if every troop in the district want a unit specific ceremony????? the ceremony team will be busy for month and cost them a bunch of time and money for fuel. I drove the boys 4 hours round trip to a camporee for their ceremony. My choice. I didn't cause a big stink because the local chapter didn't offer a call out ceremony, just found a way to provide my boys a program.........Much different than raising a ruckus to get my way.

                I believe his request is out of line.


                I am sorry my complaining about rich folks is bothering you......You guys are worried about paying for that trip to glacier national park and you next nice new SUV......I am just worried about collecting $10 for next weeks campout and adding tenting for the new scouts.... Would you like to buy a nice Sub????? they are $5.

            • #40
              Lets keep it civil in here please. A Scout is courteous. So are Scout leaders, and that means everybody in this thread needs to ratchet back the angst.

              MB: good luck with your chosen action plan here. Hopefully the ceremony will be worth it for your lads and when they go to the Ordeal they will grasp it's rich symbolism and it will motivate them to better themselves inside and outside of Scouting.

              Yours in Scouting,
              Sentinel947

              Comment


              • #41
                Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
                The story changed significantly from its initial telling..... I could careless......Just interesting how the story changed
                The only thing that changed was your undrstanding. To others it was pretty clear. This is a service he said his lodge provided but an adult who advises the lodge said no. What part about that do you not get?

                Let me make it easy on you. You drive to the scout shop and ask for a Tenderfoot patch. They tell you they have one but then the manager comes and says the badge is in the back and he does not feel like getting if for you. He's denied you a service the shop provides. Get it now?

                I'm done on this topic. You don't get it and that's fine. Have a blessed day.

                Comment


                • #42
                  I think it is an unreasonable request

                  Krampus with your line of thinking, which is flawed by the way....... Here the way your should actually read....

                  My boys earn tenderfoot, but the scout shop isn't open hours that are convenient to me....So I call the store clerk and ask her to drop the patches off at my troop meeting because my boys and I are too busy to make during their store hours. She says no......So I call her manager who says "why that is ridiculous we will have the entire staff show up and give your boys their patches even though it is a huge sacrifice for all of them and will impact their personal lives by taking time away from family and personal activities......"

                  This isn't about the lodge not offering the service, it is just not when old MB can partake.

                  I think my version is a bit more accurate example of what we are talking about here.


                  I get it.....MB is looking after his scouts........

                  Thx for the blessing I can use all I can get.


                  Comment


                  • mozartbrau
                    mozartbrau commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Lord, you still miss the point. You may think the request is wrong but IT A SERVICE THE LODGE OFFERS!!

                    Is your need to be right that overwhelming you cannot understand that? Krampus was spot on with the analogy. You are the one who does not get it. I'll stop with that.

                • #43
                  We had a few guys miss tap out for some reason when I was a kid. We just got a few of the OA members from the troop, they took off their shirts and put on their sashes and did the tap out without warning one Monday night. As far as I know, it didn't cause any earthquakes and the lodge didn't disband or anything.

                  Comment

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