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  • #16
    Mozartbrau,

    The Call-Out/Tap-Out you refer to, isn't really an official OA Ceremony. I'm not sure of its beginning, but it's been around for a long time and is a BIG part of OA traditions. I'm the adviser to our Chapter's Ceremonial Team. We do requested Troop Call-Out/Tap-Outs, and Pack Arrow of Light ceremonies for our district. I'm also a Scoutmaster, and a Call-Out ceremony is not required. In fact, you're burning up time. The year that these Scouts have to complete their Ordeal, starts after their OA Election. Our Lodge Dance and Ceremonial Teams never do Call-Outs. These are left to the Chapter Ceremonial Teams. Troops can announce their candidates right after the OA Election, or may choose to wait for a summer camp, camporee, or a troop's own Call-Out Ceremony. So yes, your troop can put something together.
    So, to recap; no Call-Out required. They need to go to the next available Ordeal program within the year after their election. Good luck.

    sst3rd

    Comment


    • #17
      MB our lodge does the tapouts at the spring camporee so the council does not miss out on all that free labor to set up the summer resident camp.....

      But seriously, I would call the lodge cheif and see if there is another tap out being held......Plus the boys could come out to summer camp just for the tapout ceremony. I have taken boys to spring camporees we did not attend so they could get tappeed out.

      We are told to keep their election secret, so the tapout will be a surprise....

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by sst3rd View Post
        Mozartbrau, The Call-Out/Tap-Out you refer to, isn't really an official OA Ceremony. I'm not sure of its beginning, but it's been around for a long time and is a BIG part of OA traditions. I'm the adviser to our Chapter's Ceremonial Team. We do requested Troop Call-Out/Tap-Outs, and Pack Arrow of Light ceremonies for our district. I'm also a Scoutmaster, and a Call-Out ceremony is not required. In fact, you're burning up time. The year that these Scouts have to complete their Ordeal, starts after their OA Election. Our Lodge Dance and Ceremonial Teams never do Call-Outs. These are left to the Chapter Ceremonial Teams. Troops can announce their candidates right after the OA Election, or may choose to wait for a summer camp, camporee, or a troop's own Call-Out Ceremony. So yes, your troop can put something together. So, to recap; no Call-Out required. They need to go to the next available Ordeal program within the year after their election. Good luck. sst3rd
        Thanks for the reply. Very informative. We have our ordeal dates (4 of them) well in advance, so we could still do a tap out and they could make their choice of ordeals. I have tried contacting the lodge but they seem -- how should we say -- very controlling about where, when and how Scouts get tapped out/called out. We have 9 Arrowmen who have been trained to do the call out -- in fact, they want to form a tap out team to do AOL ceremonies, etc., for the local lodge. Again, the local lodge seems less interested in taking them up on their offer and more on controlling who gets to do tap outs.

        To be honest, the local tap outs are a joke. Not well planned, very informal and not well organized. I was thinking we could rent some costumes, train up and do our own within the unit. I just did not want to run afoul of the many BSA policies out there. I looked and have asked around and have gotten the same answer from many OA reps and lodge advisors...no rules barring unit-based tap outs seems to exist.

        @BD: I would love to take them to summer camp or a local council camp this summer, but the schdules just don't align with when these guys are going to NT. Also, it would mean missing out on a possible ordeal date.

        I realize how special it is. My tap out (the old school kind discussed in this thread) was one of the most memorable parts of my Scouting past. I certainly don't want my guys to miss out. I can rent some seriously nice costumes (old hollywood costumes at a local store) for around $300 for 8 guys and we have a trained OA rep who did tap out as a youth. He can train (has trained) my guys and they do it VERY sharp!! We have a small pond near our CO with a fountain in the middle and a fire ring on the shore. It is secluded just enough to make you feel like you are in the woods. Perfect spot for a ceremony. I am thinking we will do this if our local lodge is going to be, shall we say, a bit overly-controlling about what they can do for us.

        Comment


        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          So what is the point of tapping them out if they cannot do the ordeal?????

          Honestly I think you stepping over the line trying to do your own tapout. Unless they complete the ordeal within a year of the it is irrelevant as the lodge won't recognize them as members.

          My tap out and ordeal was special and left a huge impression on me. It was my first time in my scouting career being dumped in a situation where I knew no one. I would call around or find a tap out......

          I would never put one on because a boys couldn't make it......the hole servant leadership thing gets lost in it.

        • Sentinel947
          Sentinel947 commented
          Editing a comment
          Mozartbrau: What you are planning is going to ruffle alot of feathers to start with. While the "Tapping" out Ceremony is awesome, it's not necessary for them to attend one in order to go on the ordeal.

          Unfortunately at least from my very limited understanding of the Order. If they lodge wants to have their own little personal fiefdom, than besides taking the issue to the Lodge Advisor, I think you are kind of at a dead end. Quite frankly, I think there are better uses of you and your boys time than fighting with some tin gods at the lodge. Besides why not take that $300 dollars and put that into some fantastic adventure? Something the boys have always wanted to do that maybe financially was a bit of a stretch? That sounds like a better use of your units energy and money.

          Ass sst3rd stated, there is no prohibition from you doing your own "tap" out. And quite honestly, the lodge will never know you did it, and since it's not a required ceremony, it doesn't matter if you do it. Only a tin god is going to get mad if your troop decides to go that route.

          Yours in Scouting,
          Sentinel947

      • #19
        Mozartbrau,

        You don't mention the date of the election of these Scouts. As I mentioned before, the clock started clicking for these Scouts to take their Ordeal up to one year after their election. I will assume that the Scoutmaster signed the election paperwork the night of the election, and the Election Team should have already turned in this paperwork to the Lodge. These Scouts should have already received their invitations to the very next Ordeal. While you are deciding about having a Call-Out/Tap-Out or not, I'm concerned that these Scouts will miss opportunities to complete their Ordeal. These are national OA procedures that I'm mentioning.
        Again, no Call-Out/Tap-Out needed. Get them to an Ordeal of their choice soon. Can you do a unit Call-Out/Tap-Out? Yes, but not at the expense of these Scouts having the opportunity to attend the next available Ordeal program. I know you want the best for your Scouts, but stop worrying about the politics, and get them to an Ordeal.

        WWW
        sst3rd

        Comment


        • #20
          Originally posted by Sentinel947 View Post
          Mozartbrau: What you are planning is going to ruffle alot of feathers to start with. While the "Tapping" out Ceremony is awesome, it's not necessary for them to attend one in order to go on the ordeal. Unfortunately at least from my very limited understanding of the Order. If they lodge wants to have their own little personal fiefdom, than besides taking the issue to the Lodge Advisor, I think you are kind of at a dead end. Quite frankly, I think there are better uses of you and your boys time than fighting with some tin gods at the lodge. Besides why not take that $300 dollars and put that into some fantastic adventure? Something the boys have always wanted to do that maybe financially was a bit of a stretch? That sounds like a better use of your units energy and money. Ass sst3rd stated, there is no prohibition from you doing your own "tap" out. And quite honestly, the lodge will never know you did it, and since it's not a required ceremony, it doesn't matter if you do it. Only a tin god is going to get mad if your troop decides to go that route. Yours in Scouting, Sentinel947
          Oh I understand completely. Let me explain a bit more. The $300 would come out of *my* pocket. The tap out is a special ceremony and I want the boys to not be robbed of that opportunity because some guy locally want to show how many badges he has. They won't miss out on any ordeal dates if we do our own tap out, nor will they miss out on anything else in our program year. We will do it in place of a troop meeting...toward the end whenit is dark and it will be a surprise. Twenty minutes and we are done.

          My reasons for doing our own tap out? First, it is a very special event. In fact, many Scout recall their tap out more than their ordeal. Second, my current batch of OA guys would love to form a tap out team and to AOL and other gigs for Packs/Troops in our District so this would be a great way to "jazz them up" for doing something like this if our lodge got around to doing such things. Three, having seen our local tap out ceremony this personalized one would be better, more memorable and would show our Scouts how to do something well. Lastly, we are blessed with enough resources to staff something like this and not detract or derail any other event in our program. I have the support our the TC and the other Scouters on this...all want to see this done. The big issue was were we going to run afoul of the lodge...other than ticking off the Grand Water Buffalo. Frankly, his position runs a bit contrary to the OA in the first place, so I see this as a win-win.

          Comment


          • Sentinel947
            Sentinel947 commented
            Editing a comment
            Based on that, you have my backing, although it doesn't count for anything, but I'm very unfamiliar with OA procedures, since my involvement as an adult leader has been absolutely nothing.

            Yours in Service,
            Sentinel947

        • #21
          Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
          So what is the point of tapping them out if they cannot do the ordeal????? Honestly I think you stepping over the line trying to do your own tapout. Unless they complete the ordeal within a year of the it is irrelevant as the lodge won't recognize them as members. My tap out and ordeal was special and left a huge impression on me. It was my first time in my scouting career being dumped in a situation where I knew no one. I would call around or find a tap out...... I would never put one on because a boys couldn't make it......the hole servant leadership thing gets lost in it.
          You are missing my point. If I follow what the lodge is saying my guys get no tap out and only the ordeal. If I do things my way, my guys get a tap out AND an ordeal. I am trying to give my guys the same experience you had at your tap out, whereas the lodge seems not to give two shakes.

          Comment


          • #22
            Mozart: Sounds to me like you got things lined up well. I honestly think the Arrowmen in your troop can and will do a fine job with this. As far as the lodge goes, this might just be a case of it being easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission. I don't think they will worry about it too much unless you do something unsafe or way out of line that people in the Scout office start getting phone calls.

            Comment


            • #23
              Originally posted by WAKWIB View Post
              Mozart: Sounds to me like you got things lined up well. I honestly think the Arrowmen in your troop can and will do a fine job with this. As far as the lodge goes, this might just be a case of it being easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission. I don't think they will worry about it too much unless you do something unsafe or way out of line that people in the Scout office start getting phone calls.
              Update: So I get a call from the local lodge advisor. He does not understand why the chapter guys are being so unresponsive. We discussed the guys I have that want to be on a tap out/ordeal team. He loved the idea, saying that council needs ordeal teams and liked our initiative. He is going to work with his chapter guys to see reason and supply a tap out team for our unit's tap out. Is going to work with us to build an ordeal team. My OA guys are excited beyond belief! There are clearly issues with our chapter leaders. Maybe they are overworked or some sort of power struggle going on...I don't know. Nor, frankly do I care. I just want to keep my boys active and expose them to new and different things within BSA that will keep them engaged in Scouting until they age-out. This experience has shown me that many of our adults get in the way of what our boys want to do. But all it takes is one experienced, long-term Scouter to step in and make things happen. I thank my lodge advisor...what a great guy!!

              Comment


              • #24
                LOL.......this was a thread started by me in 2005 as a fairly new ASM in a newly minted troop. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. My son earned Eagle in Dec 2010 and aged out in Feb 2011 and is a sophomore in college now. I was nominated and he was elected to OA and we both became very involved. In fact, I spent the last 3 years as a Chapter Adviser and began this year as an Associate Lodge Adviser. My son and I received Vigil honor together. He served in chapter and lodge offices and was on the chapter ceremony team until he left for college. Today, I could easily answer my question from 2005.

                Comment


                • #25
                  Originally posted by SR540Beaver View Post
                  LOL.......this was a thread started by me in 2005 as a fairly new ASM in a newly minted troop. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. My son earned Eagle in Dec 2010 and aged out in Feb 2011 and is a sophomore in college now. I was nominated and he was elected to OA and we both became very involved. In fact, I spent the last 3 years as a Chapter Adviser and began this year as an Associate Lodge Adviser. My son and I received Vigil honor together. He served in chapter and lodge offices and was on the chapter ceremony team until he left for college. Today, I could easily answer my question from 2005.
                  See...all you needed was a TARDIS to answer your own question.

                  Comment


                  • #26
                    Mozartbrau- I also did Tap-outs for 5 years as a youth, then served as the ceremony team advisor for the next 2 years, then got back into it again when my son was elected. I have been out for a few years now, but I cannot think of anything I ever read or was told that would forbid a unit level tap/call out. As a youth I must have done over a hundred tapouts at troop COHs,at troop campouts as well as the district camporees. MHO is that the smaller troop level ones were much more meaningful to the scouts,and that's what it's really all about.
                    Oldscout

                    Comment


                    • #27
                      Accidents where people get hurt is not the main reason they are stopping "Taps" but because "Taps" are used in the Ordeal Ceremonies. Each Lodge has been given the opportunity to write it's own "Call Out Ceremony".

                      Comment


                      • #28
                        Originally posted by jpstodwftexas View Post
                        Accidents where people get hurt is not the main reason they are stopping "Taps" but because "Taps" are used in the Ordeal Ceremonies. Each Lodge has been given the opportunity to write it's own "Call Out Ceremony".
                        I know...I am old school and was using "tap out" and "call out" for the same ceremony. Sadly, some over zelous people doing tapping killed a great ceremony. Whether tapped or called, it is the ceremony that is important.

                        Comment


                        • #29
                          Morartbrau, I don't suggest doing a unit call out. Not only would a unit call out not be as much fun for the scout, pleae remember the Order of the Arrow program is a lodge program, not a troop program. A troop should not put on OA program any more then it should run a patrol outting.

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                          • #30
                            Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
                            Morartbrau, I don't suggest doing a unit call out. Not only would a unit call out not be as much fun for the scout, pleae remember the Order of the Arrow program is a lodge program, not a troop program. A troop should not put on OA program any more then it should run a patrol outting.
                            While I agree with you, when you run in to a situation where an adult's power trip will impact a Scout's ability to enjoy Scouting, I feel compelled to act. When all available avenues have been exhausted, and barring any rules expressly forbidding it, I don't see the harm. If we follow the intent, practice, custom and execution of the ceremony to the letter, then essentially all we are doing is providing a service the lodge has told us they don't feel they should perform for new members they will no doubt call upon to help THEM out when THEY need it.

                            So while I agree with all that you say, if the lodge really wanted a quid pro quo here they would help. The fact they don't, to me, they have abdecated their responsbility here. I have already had a few Scouts as me "What is the OA good for if not for this [meaning, to provide the ceremony]?" We both know the lodge won't hesitate to impose on my new members, but why should my new members help a lodge who did not help them in their time of need? I am trying to make this a positive first experience for my Scouts despite the lodge's apathy.

                            Thankfully, as I said below, others have stepped in to make the lodge see reason. As others have posted elsewhere, sometimes we have too many adults getting in the way of simple decisions.

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