Beavah, to my mind, the thing we have to do is head the Scouts off from thinking about it as an hour-counting requirement in the first place. Yeah, there's a number there in the book and we need to follow those guidelines, but the hour tally isn't the important part of the requirement. But if we - the adults - go into it with the mindset of "I hope the kid isn't cheatin' on his hours" we're probably not going to do that. Adopting the attitude that "double-dipping is cheating" means that we have bought into it as an hour-counting requirement and made the hour tally the important thing.
Nah, we've got to avoid that in our own minds if we're going to get the right message across to the Scouts.
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- Mar 2004
Thinking about my own life,
Learning about serving others began with "required fun" sorts of things ... in the home, in the school, and in my Scouting unit. The first objective is that service to others helps all of us, and if someone doesn't do the (insert task here), no one will.
Someplace along the road, the concept jelled in my mind: Service to others brings rewards indescribable. They aren't in $$, but they are rewards.
At that point, I got it.
I think that's why required service is part of the Scouting program. We have to rely on ages and stages for Scouts to convert service is essential to service is rewarding.
Beavah and Gunny, I like the colloquy you two have had
Gunny, sorry, yeah, I wasn't clear enough about my WRFA/CRP comments. Sounds like your class covered both, but we do em separate here (or maybe it's now, the sylabus is changing a bit). Wasn't trying to disagree with your example. In fact, maybe I could amplify it and point out we don't really care if someone uses their training for some other program, we just care that they have the training. If you're going to use your RC WRFA cert to be a professional river guide, BSA doesn't make you go take the class a second time to take a Troop to Philmont.
Of course, retaking the class and getting extra practice isn't a bad thing. In fact it's one reason I volunteered to be an instructor - it'll help me keep my knowledge, skills and experience fresh.
BadenP, I'm familiar with what Trustworthy means. I've put a fair amount of effort into explaining why I don't think this whole "double dipping" issue is cheating because I understand why someone might think that it is. You insist that I am just trying to justify something. My son is still a Cub Scout, this isn't a family concern for me. We disgree. We're both well-intentioned. Can we agree on that?
I don't think it's a valid assumption that None of those organizations are giving him a free-will recognition, the way a lifesaving award might be. They each have requirements of service for the status conferred.
None stipulate "for the sole purposes of recognition by this organization" is the community service to be performed.
I look at it this way: scout performs six hours community service the weekend after earning star rank.
Should the SM recognize it for rank advancement? Yes.
Should the NHS recognize it? Yes.
Should the FFA recognize it? Yes.
Should his church recognize it? Yes.
Should we shower any kid with honor from any and every direction for his hard work, yes.
Should the last be first; and the first, last? (Oops. Tangent. )
Now, I do believe in full disclosure. The honorable thing for the scout to do is to inform each organization he applies to that the hours served were also counted in applications to other organizations. E.g.,
for NHS: "these hours were recognized in my advancement in scouts."
for FFA: "these hours were recognized in my advancement in scouts and induction into NHS."
And, if one of these groups asks for something distinct, he can cheerfully offer it. Chances are, he has served more than the requisite number of hours. At least that's been the experience for most kids I know.
I want a kid to think that every little bit of service can mean something to a lot of people. It seems to me that's a better motivation for him to serve than tallying X hours for this and X hours for that.
- Jun 2005
Beavah, to my mind, the thing we have to do is head the Scouts off from thinking about it as an hour-counting requirement in the first place.
Yah, sure, but that applies to all advancement requirements, eh? Not just service. Checkboxing or signoff-seeking defeats da point of every advancement requirement.
So sure, if a lad has been out canoein' with me a bunch at various events, demonstratin' more than enough skill to merit Canoeing MB, he's goin' to get it. And that's as it should be, eh? Da focus is on having fun and learning the skill, and the recognition comes naturally.
But if a lad comes out and just wants da badge fast, in minimum time with a quick checkout, then I'm goin' to hunker down and be thorough about testin' him on each of the requirements. I need to be more careful because he's tryin' for da shortest route to da cookie, rather than the natural, fun route.
Da right way in scouting is da first way, eh? A lad gets the full benefit of the personal attention and mentoring of a MBC and it's fun and adventurous. The second way is allowed by our system, where da lad gets an examination on da minimum requirements.
Same with service, eh? Da right way is that the lad naturally partakes of service opportunities in an active program. It's fun and it's just a part of things, and da recognition comes naturally. What troop doesn't offer at least 6 hours of opportunities over da course of six months just on regular troop events? What's more, those opportunities may be tied into other lessons of citizenship or merit badges or whatnot that make da experience far richer than just logging hours for NHS.
Da poor way is to go for da quick checkoff, the test rather than da natural participation. But if a lad goes that way, then just like da fellow goin' for the fast signoff for a skills badge, we need to do our part to have some integrity and teach what we can. So at da point when we're being made to actually count, then double-dipping shouldn't count, eh? It's not consistent with our values and mission.
Programs that don't need to do da second thing are far stronger, because they're usin' all da methods in concert, not just relyin' on advancement. But if a unit is relyin' on advancement, then they need to make sure it's a real challenge with some integrity.
- Apr 2011
In my experience as a scout I never had to double dip, mostly because i go to one of the few schools that require no hours, however I still have completed roughly 600-700 hours in high school outside of scouting. Sometimes I would never consider getting hours in scouting because some of it was focused on fundraising for international organizations. I also was a member of a large troop (100+) so there would be enough eagle projects for scouting
Essentially the SM should look at what it is for, if the scout will be able to get the hours through scouting, etc. Now on part of the school they should be ok because they would realize that a student would work with another organization that may have req.hours of their own.
- Jul 2002
If I feed and cloth my neighbors, is that service? If I feed and cloth my wife and children, is that service?
A wise former district advancement chair defined service as something one did that was "not usually expected" so a boy from a devout Catholic family serves as an altar boy - he did not count that time served as service. It was an expected behavior from his family and church. A protestant boy who happened to live next door to the same Catholic church, volunteers to assist the local priest with certain things - that he would count as service.
Not such a bad determination in my book. Keep in mind the purpose of "service" and what we are trying to teach the boys.
Acco, I think a lot of boys feel the same way. I know one star scout who didn't count the hours he did music for church, even though every week it involved an hour learning the tunes, and an hour rehearsal. (Turned out he didn't have to, some adult neglected transfer hours he helped on Eagle projects into that software thingy.) I'm not entirely sure he thought it through, but most of us figure some things are just duty to God, and in our hearts don't want it to be counted as anything by anyone else.
Growing up, I sure would have scoffed at any help I gave to a church (mine or some other) as service hours. On the other hand, if a boy volunteered to do a project for a clergyman (his or someone else's) and wanted it to count for service hours, I'd let him.
Some of this is just an exercise in giving the boy a chance to define himself. I encourage them to write down their hours in their handbook. It may inspire his kids someday when he pulls that book out of the attic.
- Mar 2008
KEEP SCOUTING LOCAL
What fun all of these old threads popping up.
read thru this one. I will say my opinion in the two years has changed a bit.
old 5years scout would be alright in my book with his level of service and double dipping.
But a scout that has less than 10 hours a month would not be permitted the luxury. He would need to do his service
Our Scoutmaster has the view that if the work is done by the boys AS boy scouts (meaning they are in at least an activity uniform and are actively representing the Boy Scouts), double dipping is ok. It's up to the other organization to determine the same. I know as Advancement Chair, I recently did a report of all of the service project hours. he turned it into school as part of a state scholarship.
Well, we are talking 21 hrs plus an Eagle project. 1 hr for Second Class, 6 hrs for Star, 6 hrs for Life, and 8 hrs for Citizenship in the Community.
The problem is that basically we are making a rule to require what the boys should already be doing. I don't think double dipping between school and scouts is a big deal, as long as the school service hours are not done during school time. I don't think it's fraudulent.
That said, my boys have never been delayed for rank by service hours, and they do a lot of service that I would never have thought about counting as service hours. For example, both are altar servers at our church. I never considered that service in terms of service hours. It's just part of what they do.
perdidochas commented02-26-2013, 01:49 PMEditing a commentOur Scoutmaster's rule is that service hours have to be pre-approved by him, and that the Scout has to be representing Boy Scouts to get credit. For example, if they are in the Builder's Club (Middle School Kiwanis affiliate), and do a service project as part of the Builder's club, that wouldn't count for Scouts. They have to be specifically representing the Scouts to count. (one real general rule is that it has to be done in Scout activity or field uniform). In terms of the school thing, that's up to the schools to decide if Scout service hours count as school service hours. Around here, they do.
- Aug 2008
Originally posted by Basementdweller View PostClears his throat..... so what is the lesson we are teaching by double dipping??? So is it about short cuts????? In my opinion, it is not ok. I have several parents that disagree, of course in their opinion their 12 year old has earned his eagle.
I have a couple thoughts on this.
Our local Board of Education encourages participation in, and recognition of Scouting service projects. Typically, the boys in our troop have more than enough service hours for rank AND their school requirements. They did the time with the scouts should I penalize them for whom they do the service with?
We recognize accomplishments in school as meeting advancement requirements, so why not service hours? Music Merit Badge requirement 3c specifically calls out participation in a school band, as just one example.
How about if the boy's Eagle Scout project is for the school?
A Scout is Helpful, so I cannot imagine any scenario where an Active Boy Scout would ever have insufficient hours for both rank and school requirements.
But then, A Scout is Thrifty, even with his time...
- Jan 2010
> Can a Scout use the hours accumulated from a Scout Service project for both rank advancement requirements and school requirements?
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Read the requirements. If there is no restrictions in the requirements, you cannot add them. No one can add to the requirements but national.
- Jun 2002
Medium answer: Horse hockey!
With his high school Key Club, a Scout helps park cars for a local charity event. Does it matter if he "double dips" and counts the service hours for both Scout and school service requirements? What if the Key Club received a "donation" for their efforts? What if the money is used to offset the individuals' cost for attending an out-of-town club event? What if everyone who parked cars got $25 at the end of the day? What if the "service" was performed through school detentention because the Key Club hazed it's new members? What if it was part of a court-ordered probation?
Under the "don't add/don't think" advancement policy NONE OF THAT MATTERS! We can only mumble the "don't add to requirements" mantra, bury our heads in the sand and sign the requirement, Right?
Baloney! These are all reasonable issues for which reasonable Scouters need to help their Scouts make reasonable decisions consistent with the published requirements, the philosophy of the unit and CO, the abilities of the Scouts and a good dose of horse sense. The requirement doesn't SAY you can't count picking up trash with the Dept. of Probation, but seriously......
Perhaps the jet-propelled advancement policies don't spell this out, but I believe it is my OBLIGATION to help boys develop character and citizenship. Part of that is understanding what is and isn't community service. I would hope that after appropriate guidance and counseling the Scouts would make the right decisions for themselves. Failing that, however, it is the leaders' responsibility to make sound decisions for the unit as a whole and enforce reasonable standards for the unit.