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Slippery slope youth protection question

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  • #31
    Originally posted by JasonG172 View Post
    In our Pack Webelos are allowed to go on camp outs without parents. All they so is sign a permission slip
    I know that Webelos have to be under the supervision of an adult (G2SS-Camping: In most cases, the Webelos Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult.)

    I can't find it now, but I thought I remember seeing something that said that an adult can't supervise more than two scouts, and a uniformed leader can't supervise more than one (since presumably s/he has other duties as well). Not sure if that's was a Pack policy or something I read elsewhere. Does it ring a bell with anyone?

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    • #32
      All I can find so far:

      Pack camping

      In most cases, each youth member will be under the supervision of a parent or guardian. In all cases, each youth participant is responsible to a specific adult.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by jblake47 View Post
        The G2SS states Parent or Legal Guardian.
        Actually it doesn't use the term "legal". From the latest GTSS:

        Separate accommodations for adults and Scouts required. When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his or her own parent or guardian. Councils are strongly encouraged to have separate shower and latrine facilities for females. When separate facilities are not available, separate times for male and female use should be scheduled and posted for showers. Likewise, youth and adults must shower at different times.

        Comment


        • #34
          What other kind of parent/guardian is there other than legal?

          And any issue arising from a problem ending in court will not necessarily need to be in a ""legal" court, but court nonetheless.

          By birth all minors are legally under the supervision/care of their parents unless the courts determine them unfit and then assign a guardian for the child, i.e. "legal" guardian.

          This process can occur anytime in a person's life. If someone is severely injured and cannot take care of themselves until they heal they can have a legal guardian provided for them. I happen to be legal guardian for my elderly father. Once the person is capable of once again taking care of themselves they can petition the court to remove the guardianship.

          If a child is under the supervision of a minor, that can mean many things, babysitting, grandparent visit, going over to Johny's house, going camping with friends, etc., but it does NOT mean guardianship. The rules apply whether the child is 1 year old or 17 years old. BSA is making some kind of distinction for those of a certain age when it states parent or guardian must attend. That means not their nanny or babysitter, not their grandparent, not their uncle, not their neighbor, and not some other parent from the pack. It means parent or court recognized guardian. If the child has foster parents, lives in an institution, is a ward of the state, etc. the legal representative for their welfare must attend with them on an event.

          Now that might not make a lot of Webelos leaders happy and it might mean a few boys can't attend a certain event, but it's BSA's way of CYA and if the pack is worried about bending the rules a bit, might want to think about a bit of CYA as well.

          Stosh

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          • #35
            There are other kinds of guardians besides legal ones, and I think that's exactly the distinction that BSA is making. The instance where the poster said a grandfather is fine is exactly that kind of guardian. I've also had 19 year old brothers camp with their little brother when I was a Cubmaster.

            TAHAWK said his problem with BEAVAH's interpretation was that it ignored the plain meaning of the word, but it didn't. The dictionary definition of guardian is "someone or something that watches or protects something". So yes the definition BSA and the BEAV are using is exactly in line with what the word means.

            What the BSA is pretty clearly saying is they want the parent to pick someone else who is responsible for their child if they themselves aren't on that trip.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by T2Eagle View Post
              There are other kinds of guardians besides legal ones, and I think that's exactly the distinction that BSA is making. The instance where the poster said a grandfather is fine is exactly that kind of guardian. I've also had 19 year old brothers camp with their little brother when I was a Cubmaster.
              BSA clearly states, as noted above, that the grandfather cannot sleep in the tent with the child. So, to the extent that a distinction can be made, the distinction BSA makes is quite clear.

              To save you going back, the statement from BSA June 2, 2014 was: "No Problem with the grandfather going along just not tenting together."

              TAHAWK said his problem with BEAVAH's interpretation was that it ignored the plain meaning of the word, but it didn't. The dictionary definition of guardian is "someone or something that watches or protects something".


              By golly, you are right. I was thinking of this defintions from the authoritative dictionary of English:

              "A person who looks after and is legally responsible for someone who is unable to manage their own affairs, especially an incompetent or disabled person or a child whose parents have died." New Oxford Dictionary of the English Language.

              I need to remember how flexible (i.e. imprecise) English is.


              What the BSA is pretty clearly saying is they want the parent to pick someone else who is responsible for their child if they themselves aren't on that trip.
              And you are clearly incorrect. To get to this "interpretation, you have to replace "just not" with "and" or
              "or." Even in English, that will not fly.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by T2Eagle View Post
                There are other kinds of guardians besides legal ones, and I think that's exactly the distinction that BSA is making. The instance where the poster said a grandfather is fine is exactly that kind of guardian. I've also had 19 year old brothers camp with their little brother when I was a Cubmaster.

                TAHAWK said his problem with BEAVAH's interpretation was that it ignored the plain meaning of the word, but it didn't. The dictionary definition of guardian is "someone or something that watches or protects something". So yes the definition BSA and the BEAV are using is exactly in line with what the word means.

                What the BSA is pretty clearly saying is they want the parent to pick someone else who is responsible for their child if they themselves aren't on that trip.
                If the BSA is saying they want the parent to pick someone else who is responsible for their child, why don't they say, "Parent or parental designee". That would be far more clear than saying Parent or Guardian which is also very clearly not the same.

                guardian n
                : one who has or is entitled or legally appointed to the care and management of the person or property of another compare committee, conservator, curator, receiver, tutor guardian ad li·tem ...
                http://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/guardian.html
                Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law ©1996. Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. Published under license with Merriam-Webster, Incorporated.

                Natural guardian is either the father or mother, recognized by law as the lawful guardian, as opposed to an appointed guardian, who is named by a court or a will to care for a child under legal age. Even though in common law, father is the guardian by nature and the mother only after the father's death, most states have given both parents equal rights of guardianship over their children. For example, in New York a married woman is a joint guardian of her children with her husband, with equal powers, rights and duties in regard to them. Either the father or mother may in the life-time of them both, by last will duly executed, appoint the other the guardian of the person and property of such child, during its minority. Either the father or mother may in the life-time of them both by last will duly executed, and with the written consent of the other duly acknowledged, appoint the other and a third person to be the guardians of the person and property of such child during its minority, and in making such appointment shall not be limited to the appointment of the same person or persons in both capacities. [NY CLS Dom Rel § 81]

                I would suggest using a law dictionary when making determination of legal issues and definitions.

                Stosh

                Comment


                • #38
                  The GSS is not a legal document, despite how much it may resemble one, so a law dictionary doesn't really have any bearing on what it means.

                  Anyway how are you supposed to ascertain who is a guardian (using the legal definition)? Mom shows up at every meeting with a guy and says they are married. Are they or are they just dating?

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                  • #39
                    Guide to Safe Scouting doesn't sound like policy mandates when they use the word Guide in the title.

                    if the woman says the guy next to her is her husband, then if he's not, you're off the hook because she has fraudulently misled you.

                    Just hope and pray it never gets into a court of law to sort out all the proper definitions/interpretations and you're listed on the paperwork as the defendant.

                    Stosh

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Renax127 View Post
                      The GSS is not a legal document, despite how much it may resemble one, so a law dictionary doesn't really have any bearing on what it means.

                      Anyway how are you supposed to ascertain who is a guardian (using the legal definition)? Mom shows up at every meeting with a guy and says they are married. Are they or are they just dating?
                      The issue was a grandfather - someone we are told is a grandfather..

                      I can ask about a second husband. Yes? No?. I think we are stuck with relying on what we are told unless is it patently false, but Is a step-parent a "parent" for purposes of the policy?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TAHAWK View Post

                        The issue was a grandfather - someone we are told is a grandfather..

                        I can ask about a second husband. Yes? No?. I think we are stuck with relying on what we are told unless is it patently false, but Is a step-parent a "parent" for purposes of the policy?
                        I wouldn't think a step-parent would be a legal guardian unless s/he has adopted the boy, legally of course.

                        Stosh

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by jblake47 View Post
                          Guide to Safe Scouting doesn't sound like policy mandates when they use the word Guide in the title Stosh
                          Guide to Advancement 2013 must be that as well, not a policy mandate.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by King Ding Dong View Post
                            Guide to Advancement 2013 must be that as well, not a policy mandate.
                            Why can't people be honest enough to say what they mean...

                            Everyone gets so wrapped up in the interpretation of every single little word and nuance and definition and situation and, and and...

                            Is it any wonder everyone doesn't know what's going on in Scouting anymore?

                            In the business world, one would never get away with what BSA tries to get away with.

                            Stosh

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by jblake47 View Post
                              Everyone gets so wrapped up in the interpretation of every single little word and nuance and definition and situation and, and and... Stosh
                              Kind of like religion.

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                              • #45
                                Eagle when I took the youth protection training what I got out of it was always have a witness. Another adult or a another child in other words one side should always be out numbered. I have taken my kids friends places before and for overnights and always made sure that the one group was outnumbered or equal. My Daughter and her friend my son and his friend my wife and the other kid if there was an issue we. Always keep in eye sight when having privet conversions.
                                As for the camping trip you laid out here I really do not see any issue with it the other father had a witness his son.

                                Now the Hypothetical you stated Yes I see no problem with that as long as the kids parents do not have an issue with it.

                                Now one thing I would like to point out here is that this is a very sensitive subject that could get somebody in a lot of trouble if handled wrong. I would practice CYA for any non parent staying with a child uncle grandpa dirty old man neighbour and send and email to the District Executive and ask them and follow with they say to the T I am sure they have had this issue come up before.

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