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  • #16
    I'm surprised this grew out of Wood Badge.

    IMHO parents can do one of three things: 1. Volunteer and assume a position of responsibility, like ASM or AC. 2. Drive scouts to events, help at fund raisers, and projects. 3. Support the scouts and unit, while staying out of the way. A "parent patrol" is a bad idea; parents aren't trained.

    The SPL, ASPL, JASM, any possibly other officers, depending on troop size and structure, aren't patrol members, and should be the example for the other scouts to follow.

    Our troop does have a 85 year tradition of the SM, and his assistants, camping as a patrol on events. The purpose in this is to set an example, and showcase new skills and ideas ... without the use of formal instruction.

    I do distinguish what we from what's been suggested in that we are all trained leaders, and only camp as a patrol, not acting as a patrol at meetings, and not directly instructing or providing anything other then a good example of doing things right. If a scout, or patrol, shows interest in a skill we use, camp gadget, or anything we do, we point him to his PL; if the scout is the PL, SPL, or Guide we point him to the Instructor. From time to time an Instructor will ask to be taught something to share, which we gladly do.

    Comment


    • #17
      Sounds like someone's individual twist on what they learned at Woodbadge. Woodbadge did not teach that.

      ==================

      I don't like it as it breaks a key rule. RULE: Adults need to be separated as much as possible. It's a youth program. Having adults line up next to the scouts significantly changes the dynamic of the program. Having adults act like a patrol MIXED IN WITH YOUTH PATROLS causes issues. IMHO, the biggest issue is that kids subtly lose leadership as youth are continually taught to respect and submit to elders. It will subvert youth discussing and resolving issues.

      But there are some good aspects. Adults have an identity so they know they are a group and not just minglers in their kids youth program. Adults get uniformed properly, make meal plans and learn skills needed for scouting. Adults work together as a unit.

      ==================

      I'm a committee chair and I go on most every camp out. My purpose those is to coach and lead the adults ... and to get them out of the hair of the scouts and out of the hair of the scoutmaster. I send scouts back to their PL, SPL or scoutmaster as needed.

      A good example from recently, I was asked by a parent what they should be doing when we are packing up camp. I answered that we need to model the behavior we want out of our scouts without doing their work for them. So the best we can do is be friendly and cheerful and do our stuff the best we can and there is always more we can do. For example, if your car is packed up, see if you can organize it better or clean it or bag up trash from your car or fold your tent better or .... Adults need to model the behavior we want. Sitting on a bench waiting for the scouts to finish is not the ideal solution. If it gets to that point, we may ask the scoutmaster if we can help reduce the load. But it's a scoutmaster / SPL call.

      ==================

      That's why I don't like a parent patrol lining up next to scouts. It clearly crosses the threshold of injecting adults into a youth program.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Eagledad View Post
        The reason 20th Century Wood Badge was created because the old course was taken out of context by unexperienced adults using the format as a model for their own program. Adults who lacked a scouting experience as a youth started guiding their scouts to run a Wood Badge lite troop where the adults ate with the patrols and the Kudu horn was blown at openings. It became enough of a problem that National blew up the old Wood Badge course and started over with a whole new curriculum. This adult is trying to do the same thing.

        [
        Barry
        On one of the committees, were you?

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        • #19
          Somewhat mixed on this one. While I like the adults to model the patrol method, i.e working as a team with their own campsite, duty roosters, cook crew, etc,etc, like some have said, I do think it crosses the line when they start lining up with the patrols, competing with the patrols, etc.

          I admit I am a Scouting addict and love the outdoors (wife tell me the first words out of my mouth when I found out oldest was going to be a boy were "YES I GOT A FUTURE SCOUT!" ), and I love camping with my sons. But with oldest, I try to avoid him at camp. At summer camp, I only saw him 4 times a day: meals and when he was walking to Swimming MB b/c I was in the lake doing canoeing or kayaking for my class. But as others have said, it's important for him to get away from me.

          Now only if he could do away with his fear of the SM, he doesn't bite


          Comment


          • #20
            Somewhat mixed on this one. While I like the adults to model the patrol method, i.e working as a team with their own campsite, duty roosters, cook crew, etc,etc, like some have said, I do think it crosses the line when they start lining up with the patrols, competing with the patrols, etc.

            I admit I am a Scouting addict and love the outdoors (wife tell me the first words out of my mouth when I found out oldest was going to be a boy were "YES I GOT A FUTURE SCOUT!" ), and I love camping with my sons. But with oldest, I try to avoid him at camp. At summer camp, I only saw him 4 times a day: meals and when he was walking to Swimming MB b/c I was in the lake doing canoeing or kayaking for my class. But as others have said, it's important for him to get away from me.

            Now only if he could do away with his fear of the SM, he doesn't bite


            Comment


            • #21
              Somewhat mixed on this one. While I like the adults to model the patrol method, i.e working as a team with their own campsite, duty roosters, cook crew, etc,etc, like some have said, I do think it crosses the line when they start lining up with the patrols, competing with the patrols, etc.

              I admit I am a Scouting addict and love the outdoors (wife tell me the first words out of my mouth when I found out oldest was going to be a boy were "YES I GOT A FUTURE SCOUT!" ), and I love camping with my sons. But with oldest, I try to avoid him at camp. At summer camp, I only saw him 4 times a day: meals and when he was walking to Swimming MB b/c I was in the lake doing canoeing or kayaking for my class. But as others have said, it's important for him to get away from me.

              Now only if he could do away with his fear of the SM, he doesn't bite


              Comment


              • #22
                Thank you everyone for the awesome feedback. There was a meeting last night with the SM and decided to remove the patrol part and focus only on mentoring.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Why are parents mentoring in the first place? Either they sign up, get training, or they drive cars. Untrained parents hanging around interfering in the program is wrong, especially those that were told they couldn't have their own patrol and couldn't stand in formation for the flag ceremonies. This isn't a slippery slope to adult led, it's the fast track.

                  Stosh

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Wood Badge and IOLS are set up and run LIKE A TROOP WITH PATROLS, but they are NOT a Troop for adults...... , and I think this is where the OP's friend got confused, it is not how the adults should operate, but how they should encourage the boys to operate.

                    Yes, "Old Goat patrol" is an un-official thing. ASMs, Patrol Dads, SMs, CCs etc. are all ex-officio members, but to try and compete as an actual Patrol, no, not good.

                    Watch from a distance. Teach your expertise to the SPL, Instructors, PLs, then step back and let them teach and example themselves for the younger boys.

                    I have a wonderful photo of Scoutson, filing an axe, while another Scout watches and points at the activity.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I'm having trouble with the terminology. When I think "parents", I think of parents of scouts who are not registered Scouters. If they are indeed only "parents", they have no business wearing the uniform and participating in troop activities, except when asked to in order to provide "two deep", counsel a merit badge (as a registered MBC) or to provide transportation. As stated above having one's parent along ALL the time certainly does change the dynamics of the Scouting experience. Sounds to me like an excuse to "helicopter"...thup, thup, thup, thup.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Papadaddy View Post
                        I'm having trouble with the terminology. When I think "parents", I think of parents of scouts who are not registered Scouters. If they are indeed only "parents", they have no business wearing the uniform and participating in troop activities, except when asked to in order to provide "two deep", counsel a merit badge (as a registered MBC) or to provide transportation. As stated above having one's parent along ALL the time certainly does change the dynamics of the Scouting experience. Sounds to me like an excuse to "helicopter"...thup, thup, thup, thup.

                        So what you are saying is that parents who volunteer to drive four hours to a camp are not permitted to stay with the troop? You guys make scouting waaay too hard. If 300 ft seperation isn't enough, then what is the point?

                        Beary

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                        • #27
                          Parents who drive four hours to get the kids to camp may not be covered by BSA liability insurance and they might not have completed YPT. So there's a couple of issues right there that may in fact keep them from even coming into BSA camps. They haven't filled out a medical form and cleared any background checks. So they get free rein?

                          A little Devil's Advocate here, but I think they are legitimate issues that go along with parents being able to hang around without proper vetting

                          Stosh

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I'll repeat myself stosh, unit leaders who try to keep parents away from observing the programs usually find themselves being asked to leave. Council doesn't want to risk even the hint of an abusive situation. I would and have given warnings to leaders who had the attitude of keeping parents away. Litigation is knocking at your door. Barry

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              C'mon gang, you're running out of nits to pick. Parents can "observe", any time... This is about an Adult Patrol, playing Scout, being in comparison/competition with the Boys. This is not about escorting Scouts to summer camp (requirements are still there: YP, Two Deep, etc.), or staying over at camp when they are not "vetted" (what exactly is that? I wanted a Mustang, anyway....).

                              "Old Goat Patrol", Rocking Chair Patrol, 273 meter camping.... let's get on with encouraging the "Patrol Method".

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Ok, I think I need to give a little back story as this conversation has gone a little awry. Before we joined this troop there were only 7 boys. They claimed to be boy-led but it turns out their definition was to let the boys decided what to do and the SM did all of the footwork to get them there. I don't think the words "go ask your SPL or PL" had ever been said, it was usually "go ask the SM". A new SM took over and is pushing to get us into a true boy-led troop. We have grown to over 30 boys in the last 2 years which has brought in a wonderful group of parents who want to help. Unfortunately the SM is running into the "this is how we always did it" mentality from many of the original parents which is creating obstacles. The original 7 boys have very little leadership experience so it is hard to tell all the younger boys to go ask them. The idea behind the parent patrol was not to create a competition between parents and boys, it was to create the image of how it is supposed to work. We need a way to give the older boys the concept and get the younger boys ready for when it is their turn to lead. The "mentors" will be there to help all of the boys through this transistion and give them the guidance they need to be able to become leaders. All parents in our troop that interact with the boys or go on camp outs need to have YPT. The new mentors will also all be registered and go through basic training as well as SM training. I envision the mentors will only be around for a year or so and then slim down to a couple ASMs.

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