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  • #46
    I would have a sit down with the CC and and the CO, preferably over lunch. Try to come to terms with him. Also get your CC on more campouts with you. The CC will get a better feel for the program that you run. The CC wrote the policy to get complaining parents off his and your backs. The policy will not fix the parents complaint problem. You and CC need to have a parent meeting and spell out the realities of the program. My troop bought troop tents for the scouts. The parents just don't know enough to purchase good economical sturdy tents. If a tent is damaged on a campout the scouts that slept in it are required to fix the tent. The damaged tent is assigned to them until it is fixed. If malicious damage was done the parents are required to reimburse the troop. Scouts sleep in tent as assigned by the patrol leader.


    • #47
      Howcum I see nothing in this proposed "Rule" about the Scout Law? Everything is covered in that.

      >>Taking good care of the equipment? Trustworthy, Loyal , Thrifty, Helpful....
      >>Replacing stuff I helped break? Trustworthy, Thrifty, Helpful, Loyal....
      >>Camping/Tenting with a fellow Scout? Friendly, Trustworthy, Loyal.....
      >>Not tenting with dad anymore? Brave, Friendly, Courteous, Kind.....
      >>Being there when needed? Trustworthy, Helpful , Kind, Obedient ,....
      >>Looking after my "buddy's" welfare? (he'd do the same for me): Helpful, Trustworthy, Kind, Friendly.... * see also your faith's version of the "Golden Rule".*

      Sooner or later (hope it's sooner) every boy says "no thanks , mom, I'll fold my own underwear". Some need a push, some need an example of the other boys and adults.

      >> If you can't trust your SM to do right by the boys, then all else is moot. Policies are firstly to assure a uniform, expected response to a given situation and secondly, for folks who might not have the experience or other good judgement in a given situation. Hence, the G2SS, and SMST, and IOLS. Policies can be GENERAL or REALLY SPECIFIC. And what happens when the Policy doesn't include THIS situation? That's when policy writers go crazy....

      I see this as a really good SMMinute possibility....


      • #48
        Originally posted by King Ding Dong View Post
        So what happens when a program refuses to follow the policies of a Chartered Organization for their youth program? "Thank you for your service. Your services are no longer required."

        I dunno'. What happens when a CO refuses to follow the policies of the B.S.A. for their Scouting unit? For that matter, what happens when a Scoutrmaster decides he's the SPL and all the PL's all rolled into one ball of ignorance?

        It depends. Sometimes B.S.A. looks the other way. Sometimes the policies get enforced.

        Whatever happens, departures from the rules do not change what the CO and the unit adults promise to do.

        It is not the Troop Committee's job to dictate the rules posted above. Some parts? Sure. What we read? No. The CC is showing way too much desire to micromanage tenting and, in the process, tramps all over the roles of the uniformed Scouters and the troop and patrol leaders.

        Save what you can decently save so the CC can save face.

        To confess a prejudice, I dislike unit bylaws. We already have bylaws - written by B.S.A. We already have Law - 12 part. Somehow, I Scouted forty-two years in three troops with absolutely no bylaws. Now, for my sins, I work with a slowly improving, still largely adult-run, infrequently camping club for resumes with twenty-two pages of bylaws (inclusive of forms). Fortunately, their only effect is to scare away Scouts because not a soul can recall a line once they have been read at the first meeting attended by the newly-crossed-over. Not even the "required" forms are used. They do, however, so please the structural engineer who is CC (like the SM, totally untrained).
        Last edited by TAHAWK; 08-15-2014, 05:35 PM. Reason: Opps.


        • #49
          He is a good scouting friend, but I would not go to the point of saying he is a "good buddy" and he has the experience and knowledge to know what is correct in scouting and what is not. Quite frankly, I'd rather have no battles whatsoever. The crux of the matter is this: the CC believes his way is the only way and came into the position thinking he was in charge and could dictate to me how to run the troop. He has little knowledge or experience with scouting but to his credit, he has attended all trainings as well as SM training. I have a much longer scouting background, however, I am always open to other points of view. I have told the committee that program is my area and will run it in the manner the PLC, my ASM's, and I see to be the best manner. I will take suggestions from the committee under advisement, but it will ultimately be left to the program side to make the decision. That did not sit well with him.

          Every single time there is a little hiccup in the program, he shuffles off to some corner and tries to pull others in to discuss with them what is going wrong with the troop. I am a friendly and outgoing person in scouts and I tell everyone that if they have a problem or a question, they only need to come to me to talk. I can take criticism. However, with this CC, I almost feel like I have to watch my back at any given moment. Fortunately, I have strong and widespread support in the troop as well as with the CO. He is my 4th CC during my tenure as either ASM or SM. I had a great relationship with the first 3. Not 2 months into this CC's term, he was already making waves and making blanket statements that the troop was in danger of folding. We had lost a large body of boys who had simply aged out and had some lean years on recruiting. Our active troop size was around 20 (down from about 35). Our prior CC, this CC, and I agreed to meet and go over a few things to try to get on the same page. He let off his steam and things calmed down for a bit. Six months ago, I got word that he and one other committee member were going to ask for my resignation because they didn't like the way the troop was being run. The CO got wind of it and the COR and IH met to discuss the matter. The COR then went to the next committee meeting and proceeded to tell all there that they have complete and total confidence in the scoutmaster corps and its methods and that any petty politics were to cease immediately. Everything calmed down until this week.

          Quite frankly, I think he is a poor excuse for a scouting leader. I can not trust him to not be out trying to undermine me or the program that the boys want. He is not loyal. He is not helpful...he constantly criticizes and nearly ridicules those who he disagrees with. He is not very friendly...he has a very abrasive personality and I am constantly having to apologize or give excuses for his actions. He is not courteous in that if he has a problem, he doesn't come to us about it but chooses to create policy from the committee side. Several adult leaders have seen him being critical of boys when they are trying to do something. He usually starts out with something along the lines of "That isn't going to work. Go back and do it again." I prefer to let them fail and then constructively point out other ideas that might work. He is especially hard on his own son, who in my opinion is a wonderful scout despite his dad's criticisms.

          We do have a QM and just recently purchased a few troop tents to be used by any who wish to do so. We do not have a policy in place governing their use and if you look at my response, I agree that some sort of procedure or policy needs to be follows on their use and return. I do believe we need to make sure the boys and parents realize that if their scout destroys our property, it will be up to them to replace it.

          I believe the best place to establish tenting procedure is on the outing or just before it takes place. Different outings require different types of accommodations. A large tent on one campout might be out of place on another. I dropped an exercise on our boys at one campout a year ago this spring. They got to the park and said "Let's get our tents set up!". I told the SPL, "Hold on a second....the boy's tents were all destroyed and all we have is what is in the trailer (except the tents)." I had made sure there were plenty of tarps, poles, and ropes in the trailer. I told them each patrol (there were 2) had to make a shelter for themselves and spend the night in it. The boys still talk about that outing.

          As far as the boy camping with the parent is concerned: there is mainly one boy (another has camped with other boys before, but has a strong preference to be with his dad). This boy has every bit of knowledge that is required. He is quiet and reserved, but he leads by example and is well liked. However, he has a very strong fear of going camping (actually going out of the house anywhere to spend the night). What do I do with him? If I tell him he can't stay with his parent, he will not go. Period. It not only deprives him of a great experience, but it deprives the others of his company and the positive role he plays in the troop. With his parents, he has amassed enough camping time to qualify for OA and was elected by his peers. I had my doubts that he would follow through on it because of the solo camping during the ordeal. His mom, however, has told me that he is determined to do this because he was humbled that his peers elected him to it despite having his issue. I hope he does and it goes well (it is this weekend). If he can do this, then just perhaps he will realize that he can do it again with different circumstances. He is facing some inner demons and is doing the best he can. I am proud of him. This CC doesn't care about what a kid is facing along these lines...he has a preconceived notion of what it is supposed to be and if it doesn't fit the mold, then it is wrong.

          I had originally put that policy out to get feedback on what others thought of it at face value. I hadn't planned on this to go into a gripe-fest about the CC that I currently have, but it has. There has been some more things happen that I will expand upon once things become official.....


          • #50
            Depending on finances I think it can make sense for the troop to purchase and own all of the tents. Spend the money on 2 man backpacking tents that can be used for backpacking and car camping. Obviously this cost money and might not be realistic.


            • #51
              Evilleramsfar - conflict with the CC is the worst. I went thought it, but did not have the backing of the CO. The CC and CO were old friends. You are in a much better position then I was in. When I started my troop I wrote the bylaws so that the CC and SM have equal but separate powers. CC runs the committee and parents. The ASM's and I run the program. I do not like the standard BSA troop org chart.


              • #52
                With all due respect, your CC needs to stay in his lane and stop back seat Scoutmastering. If he's trained, he needs to do his job and let you do yours.


                • #53
                  What a pinhead.


                  • #54
                    This isn't hard. As SM, you must insist on one more line, "Any part of this policy may be revised at any time at the discretion of the Parrol Leaders' Council."


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by qwazse View Post
                      This isn't hard. As SM, you must insist on one more line, "Any part of this policy may be revised at any time at the discretion of the Parrol Leaders' Council."
                      Or if the PL's have the authority to run their own patrols the way the boys want them to be run, the policy can be revised at any time at the discretion of the Patrol Leaders. If the CC is in the adult campsite 300' away from the boys, he shouldn't be trying to run the show from there. The PL's do just fine without him and if they have a problem there's always the SPL if there is one or the SM.



                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Rick_in_CA View Post
                        This is unreal. What next? An official written policy on underwear (the only underwear shall be boxers, unless the scout is of 14 years of age in which briefs may be substituted with written permission of the parent. Material will be 100% cotton unless the expected average night time temperature at the camp out is expected to drop below 40 degrees...)?
                        Boxers are a bad idea ... chafing.


                        • #57
                          Evilleramsfan, your CC has written a fine piece of fiction for tent camping. I feel that you are very lucky that this gentleman is on the committee and is not on the scoutmaster team. I think your real question is whether he should remain as head of the committee when, despite his training, he doesn't seem to understand his role in the troop nor how a troop strives to achieve the aims of scouting.


                          • #58
                            I had a friend who attempted to CC like this. It was rough. One way that I handled it is to mandate that no committee meeting be heald in the absence of the crew president. That basically ended committee meetings for us. The youth took a little more responsibility and learned to contact the appropriate MC for the task they needed to accomplish. You could also insist the same thing with a troop, but you would have to have an SPL willing to be available for it, and mature enough to respectfully disagree. A comment youth can allay adults' concerns about these sorts of things.


                            • #59
                              Finally, regarding O/A, the SM determines which youth candidates are eligible for election. The guidelines do not mention tent mates during the required nights, while they are very clear on other things that may or may not count towards those nights. So, it's clear to me that one's philosophy of "manly camping" should not come into play here. A boy who can't manage his ordeal (on first attempt) is not a detriment to the order. A boy who can, while yet an intimidating thug and ruffian, is a detriment. You seem convinced that this boy was elected to the order by virtue of his cheerful service, and you should stand by that. The CC's opinion is counter the ideals of the order. You (or ideally one of your ASMs) should feel free to say so in public.


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by qwazse View Post
                                This isn't hard. As SM, you must insist on one more line, "Any part of this policy may be revised at any time at the discretion of the Parrol Leaders' Council."

                                I'd add "or the SM" that. We had an SPL who was a big fan of the "party tents." After dinner, the boys would adjourn to the big tents and the conversations would turn to what typical 15-16 year old boys talk about (girls), which caused the younger boys to get uncomfortable. The result was younger boys sleeping on the ground near the campfire while the older boys stayed up in the big tent.

                                When I discussed this issue with the SPL, his response was, "I guess they're just too young to be in scouts" (!!) After several minutes of talking in circles, I finally just said "no big tents" and left it at that.