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Coming to terms with my son's troop choice

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  • #16

    Yes, troops are not there to serve the packs. Troops are there to serve the Boy Scouts. BUT if a troop doesn't do anything with a pack, and another troop does, which troop do you think the Cubs will join? Statistically Cub Scouting provides the most Boy Scouts.

    I've seen this multiple times. When I was a Cub, the troop my Pack's CO chartered did not do anything with the pack: no invitiations to a meetings, no Webelos overniter, nothing at all. They just expected the Cubs to cross over to them. A neighboring troop with no pack did provide a den chief. They did invite us to a meeting. They took us on a Webelos overniter. And everyone in my den joined that troop.

    I know of a troop that folded because they could no longer get new scouts. Why? Because they did not establish a relationship with the CO's pack. All the Cubs joined a troop that provided den chiefs and did things with them, Ironic thing is this: the troop that folded is restarted and is now working with the pack ( they had a joint Christmas Party in which Cub and Boy Scout awards were given out and the Webelos IIs crossed over) and the troop that was "stealing" the Cubs now is having recruiting problems becasue their feeder pack folded.

    Recruiting is needed, maybe not to the degree some folks want, but if you are not getting any new scouts, you will run into problems.


    • #17
      dedkad, I would agree with your son's SM that Boy Scouts are a time to get a little separation but it doesn't mean complete separation. I suspect what he's trying to do is cut out the helicopter parents but every troop I know needs SOME help from parents, whether it's sitting on boards of review, organizing fundraisers, or helping Scouts plan activities. That may mean you're less involved or less busy than you thought you'd be -- if so, you can still help that Pack connect with the Charter Troop and make sure the liaison job is transferred in a way that lasts past next summer.


      • #18
        The Troop is responsible for recruiting for the Troop. The Pack is responsible for recruiting for the Pack.


        If the Troop wants to find 6th Graders to join and ignore the Pack, that's their choice. But if you don't want to recruit, then you die.

        Put another way, why should I, as a Pack leader, help your Troop (as opposed to another one) getting a NSP from my Webelos II if you haven't done anything for me.

        The Troop gets Scouts from Packs. Why is it offensive that Troops have to do something for that?

        None of us WANT to recruit, it's part of the program. I resent the idea Scouts is all play and no work. Learning that you have to do things you don't want to do, like recruiting, is part of growing up... Last I checked, that was what we are here to do, help turn boys into men. If the troop resents helping the Pack, then you're turning boys into Man-Childs.


        • #19
          My recruiting policy for my boy-led program consists of: Cubs will want to join Troops where their friends are. If the Cubs join the Troop because they have had interaction a couple of times with the Scouts, they are more apt to join. The message being sent to the Cubs is: Your advancement (AOL) is dependent on what we do to help you. If we can help you with AOL we can help you with Eagle as well. Webelos who have a familiar DC will want to go to the troop where the DC is from. He's their friend already and if he can be their first PL, that would be great.

          If a troop doesn't make an effort to connect with the Pack, why would those Webelos boys want to connect with the troop. Even a poorly run troop that makes an effort is better than the best BSA program offered by another troop that hasn't the time of day to even say "Hi." I'm not saying they have to be BFF's, or that the troop has to run the pack program, just make enough connection to let the Webelos boys know that the troop is interested in having them join.



          • #20
            I understand you frustration Fred, but I don't agree with your solution becaue it assumes that all adults are equal and all troop programs are good quality units. My District and Council experience is that about 50% of the troops are good quality while the rest are either in transition or just plan bad programs. Your solution would force 50% of the packs to join low quality programs. Also, while we each have our ideal troop programs, families have different goals for their sons and one troop size doesn't fit all. Likely the BSA would loose more scouts with that program. However, I do agree with you that troops creating activities just to recruit new scouts is a distraction to the intended troop program. As far as I could tell at the time, our troop out of 19 was the only one that didn't plan anything special for visitors. Instead we told Webelos leaders that they could visit our program anytime they liked. We didn't mind surprise visits to Troop meetings, but did ask a weeks advance notice for campouts so that the PLC had time to make accommodations for the extra visiters. We also found that camping overnight was a bit much for Webelos families and just visiting the troop for a day through campfire was plenty for them to see us in action. Their suggestion not ours. While I was on the District committee, I was encourging Troops to not plan special events for recruiting, but Webelos recruiting weekends are a major planned annual event for several troops and they weren't about to change. Barry


            • #21

              So your upset that YOU, Adult, Don't get to go camping, backpacking and other outdoor adventures.

              Sorry the BSA isn't a family outdoor adventure club.

              May I suggest googling your town and add Outdoor Club or Hiking club or Canoe club and see what pops up.


              • dedkad
                dedkad commented
                Editing a comment
                I get plenty of camping, backpacking and outdoor adventures on my own time with adults and/or family. I don't need Boy Scouts to do that. What I was trying to say is that I am disappointed over the lost opportunity for this troop to stop it's dwindling numbers and get it turned around with a new influx of boys.

            • #22
              About 95% of adult volunteers in a scout unit consists of parents. Pretty hard to tell them to go someplace else if they are interested in doing outdoor activities and if they do the ranks of adult leadership is going to take a real nosedive.



              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                Maybe the unit is flush with adults?????

                I have posted before that the only reason I am SM is the rest of the Troop Adult leadership are too old to camp.

                And to be completely honest. I would be just fine with being a drop off parent and not being a leader.

                No hauling grubmasters to the grocery store, troop campouts, no parent hassles, no money hassles.......

                I enjoy the boys and watching them grow........Sometimes it is just not worth it.

              • jblake47
                jblake47 commented
                Editing a comment
                I hear you! At my age, a boy-led program is all that I can handle.


            • #23
              Our troop recruits and invites Webelos to join us on any camp out that logistically would work. We also provide a calendar of events and cleaned up roster (last initials only, etc). We even volunteer to help at events if we can get scouts to sign up for it. And we have a November camp out that targets Webelos and we teach them skills and ask them if there is anything special we should cover. We also have two den chiefs in other units.

              ================================================== ======

              But several troops in our city are very gung-ho over-the-top recruiting now. The troop that is getting most of our cub scouts now has threads into at least four packs if not five. They start contacting the potential scouts and scout leaders when they are Bears. We were used to 6 to 12 months in advance. And they are at 80+ boy scouts. I think they would be happy if they had all the scouts from our city.

              So now I'm stuck as CC of our troop and COR of our pack and our troop ... where the pack leaders are tied to the other troop and promote that troop. For years the pack fed our troop. It changed and now it's almost impossible to change back until the other troop screws up again. ... SO ... If our COR wants a strong program, it seems only logical that I should remove the pack leaders that are supporting the other troop and suggest they join the pack of that troop's COR. Why should I sign off on pack leaders that don't support our troop? Their sons joining the other troop is prima facie evidence that they don't support the COR. So why have them as our pack's leaders. Seriously. The idea of a COR is that the COR wants to run a youth program. Why have leaders that promote another group's youth program? I'd rather have a weaker pack that supports our troop then extra leaders that don't support our troop.

              The point is the BSA program design does NOT make sense.

              ================================================== ==========

              If the argument for troop shopping is that there are bad troops, then, ... because there are at least as many screwed up packs ..., BSA should promote pack shopping instead of leaving so many youth to join bad packs. Every pack should put flyers out to all the local schools and let the supposed best pack win and let the other packs die. (not serious, but this is the parallel of troop shopping) Or have big city wide join scouting event and people choose the pack they want and let the others wither and die. (not my suggestion, but it's parallel with troop shopping)

              I fully believe that the imbalance between healthy and flailing units is a result of this troop shopping and the structural separation between packs and troops. It starves fresh leadership and lets units continue for years with flaky programs. It's a problem that's very well known at the cub level as by the time leaders are experienced they move onto Boy Scouts. Then at the Boy Scout level the good adults tend to clump at troops with good reputations leaving other troops to wither or continue flailing forever. You don't have enough new energy coming in to drive improvements. So you end up with a cycle of growth and sickness in packs and troops. It's a bad program design that leaves way way too many scouts and volunteers in weak units and leaves them with bad experiences. Every time we state that we know there are half the packs/troops are poor units, we are also stating we know that half the people registered in scouts are having poor experiences with scouting.

              It's a bad design because it depends on a COR but then subverts the COR by having the charter org chase the same scouts again and again.

              And if for no other reason, it's a bad design because one charter org can only have one charter org rep who then oversees two units where the units don't have to support each other. A better design would be each unit can have a separate charter org rep. Zero requirement for it to be one charter org rep per charter org. Oh wait ... the COR is a voting member of the district and BSA. And each charter org can have one.

              A fundamental change needs to occur. Personally, I'd really love to see adopt a UK approach where the charter org is a "scout group" and there is a natural progression between the levels and a strong relationship between the units.


              Perhaps the very first change should be one re-charter. Don't recharter a pack and troop separately. One charter renewal. One check. One membership list. That will get the adults talking and working together. Only makes sense. Heck, our pastor always looks at me weird when he has to sign two different charters, sign two copies of the charter org agreement even though they are one charter org and they only have one charter org representative. It's a broken design that needs changing.
              Last edited by fred johnson; 01-11-2014, 03:57 AM.


              • dedkad
                dedkad commented
                Editing a comment
                I'm curious to know if you are in favor of families being able to transfer schools if their neighborhood school is an underperforming school, or if you think the families should just tough it out and attend their neighborhood school.

              • fred johnson
                fred johnson commented
                Editing a comment
                I'm in favor of people doing what's best for their kids. If the school is bad, they can transfer. But there is a big difference between a bad school and shopping for the best situation.

                In my city, there are six normal elementary schools and one specialty (alternative teaching style) school. I only know one parent who has posted for the alternative style school. I know no one that has petitioned to attend a different elementary school. Otherwise, everyone attends the ones assigned. And those parents then join the PTO and school activities and make that school better.

                I've yet to see an elementary school in our area flounder because everyone is avoiding it.

                I think it's the same with scouts. If you want to switch, fine. Go for it. But it's a "switch". Otherwise, try to help your scouting unit become better.

                Teaching everyone to start from the beginning with the "shopping" concept hurts scouts.

            • #24

              In my neck of the woods, pack shopping is the norm. You might have 2-3 packs visiting a School night round up, so you visit the packs at their meeting. Even after Round up's are over, you still get folks switching around. different packs meet different needs. So your argument for pack shopping does exist and is viable.

              As for why do you want leaders at the Cub Scout level who are involved in another CO's troop, maybe they have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to get the job done and be an asset to the pack. After all it is the SCOUT'S (emphasis, not shouting) decision to join a troop, not the parent's, at least it should be.

              I know in my situation, 1 Boy Scout at one CO, and a Wolf and in about 6 months TIger at another CO. I knew the troop had some challenges, I and many others tried to advise and counsel to no avail, but I wanted my son to see them anyway as I could not believe the situation was as bad as I kept hearing and reading.

              It was. Son went camping with them and it was a complete charlie foxtrot as I described in another post. I went away several times to keep form interfering and expressing frustration. He noticed the issues and, yes, when he asked me if that was a normal troop, I was 'trustworthy" and told him no, it wasn't. He wanted to see other troops, and we did.

              I hope and pray that the troop situation improves as many of my former Cubs are in it. But one, who did have reservations about the troop, has commented ' If I don't like it, I transferring."

              While the UK model may be a viable one, in fact I do like it myself, one key ingredient is the GROUP LEADERS ( again emphasis) who supervise the pack's, troop's and crew's leadership. Group leaders are similar to our commissioners, but more involved.

              But as I mentioned, when you got leaders who think they know better than the folks who have 'been there, done that," and won't listen to their advice, or, more importantly, won't listen to the youth at their SM conferences, and with their election results, and then wondering why the youth are transferring or quitting scouts all together, troop has a problem.


              • dedkad
                dedkad commented
                Editing a comment
                We encourage families to look at other packs if ours doesn't fit their needs. In our case, all the packs in our town are pretty good, so the pack shopping consists mainly of just finding out what days and times the pack and dens meet, so they can choose one that best fits the family schedule. Personally, I think when families are looking at packs, they should be taking a closer look at the dens. You can have an awesome pack, but there may be a weak den leader at your son's grade level. If the pack structure is that the den leader progresses through the ranks with their son, then you could be stuck with that weak den leader for your son's entire CS career. New CS families don't really know about how the packs and dens are operated, so they are not savvy enough to ask those kinds of questions.

              • fred johnson
                fred johnson commented
                Editing a comment
                I agree that the Group Leader is the key role and needs to coordinate between units and help the units build on each other. You say it's like a commissioner. I think it's more like an active charter org representative and/or a larger group committee chair with sub-committees for each unit. Heck, there really should be one treasurer for the group and one recruiting program that recruits all ages and one training chair and ....

                PACK LEADERS THAT SUPPORT A DIFFERENT TROOP - I must actually disagree. I'd rather mentor and get interested parents to training and help grow new leaders than keep leaders that promote a troop in a different charter org. It's like the "Miracle On 34th Street" movie where salesman send people to the best deal even if a different store. That's the ideal. The best deal or the best troop.

                In this case, our troop does fine and has for years. We had one fall where we kept two kids that "needed scouts" that caused other scouts to leave or transfer. Those two scouts had more issues than we could handle and to be frank their parents used scouts because they had so few options with their kids. Those scouts are gone now and our program is fine. But those families/leaders now have ties to other troop. It is out of self-interested they promote the other troop. It's not because the other troop is better. It's because they want scouts to join with their sons. I can tell you stories about broken bones, tied up scouts, major bullying and such from the other troop. No troop is perfect. The issue is the other leaders promote the other troop out of self-interested. Perhaps, the best case is waiting until a set of parents develops a bad perception of the other troop. That will happen. It just takes time.

                But for the current leaders and as with Macy's in the movie, that can only last so long before management needs to re-align attitudes or go out of business. Ideals are good. What really happens is different (leaders promoting a different troop out of self-interested). But staying alive is necessary.

                So ... IMHO ... it would be best if I as COR removed those leaders or suggest they switch to the pack of the other charter org. I'm not sure if I will do that. Probably not. But it would be best for the overall youth program run by the charter org. IMHO.
                Last edited by fred johnson; 01-11-2014, 10:52 PM.

              • Eagle92
                Eagle92 commented
                Editing a comment

                If my pack's CO was to ask me to leave because my oldest son decided to join another CO's troop, this is what would happen.

                1) They pack would lose a Scouter with over 30 years in the program, including as a professional. I've been able to help out in some sticky situations b/c of the expereince.

                2) The pack would lose their only consistent member to Roundtable. Yes, I can be replaced in this matter, but at the moment I'm it.

                3) The pack would lose their only active member of the district committee. Yes, the COR is a member of the committee, but I have only seen him at one scout event in the 5 years I've been with the pack, and that was actually a Boy Scout camporee.

                3) The worst thing that would happen is the pack would lose 1/4 of it's members at a minimum. My 10 Wolves would move, and probably a few others as well.

                Unfortunately I saw #4 happen, not when a CO kicked out a leader, but when a church decided to restart it's pack and troop. They asked one of my pack's leaders, who was a member of the church, to restart the pack. Kinda hard to say 'No" to your minister. He ended up taking his entire den with him when word got out he started a new pack. He didn't actively promote switching over, but when people found out, it happened.

            • #25
              Again every situation is different. Most of the leaders in my neck of the woods would rather have someone in another unit and stay in scouting, than get out all together. And a few would rather the youth be in some type of positive organization, even Trails Life, if that as a better fit than a troop.


              • #26
                Yeah, there are many arguments both ways. Another aspect I see is that a real informed choice rarely happens.

                Most brothers join the troop their first brother joined. Only one he's seen, family association and family pressure.

                Most den members follow the decision of the den leader and his son. Loyalty.

                Most packs feed the same troop until something happens. Then the pack feeds another troop until something else happens. Such trends and statistics reflect herd movements and not real "choice".

                It's much less about a real decision and much less about unit quality and much more about adult influence and adult friendships.

                Anyone who really things the current system promotes "choice" is fooling themselves. Heck, Eagle92's last comment reflected the reality. Scouts move in herds and usually follow their leaders. It's not a real choice.

                I'm all for scouts continuing and finding the right unit if the current unit isn't working. But there is a lot to be said for continuity, loyalty and helping make things better.


                • #27
                  Last night my son went to his 3rd meeting for the troop that he will be joining. I am now convinced that he made the right choice. The meeting was boy-led, organized, fun, and they included my son and made him feel welcome. Although it would have been nice to have had a hand in trying to improve the CO troop, it would have been a long haul. The boys in the CO troop aren't respectful to each other, several adults hover and interrupt during the meeting, and I just get the feeling that some of these adults are there trying to relive their youth through Boy Scouts. Their troop is set up to attract a certain kind of boy, and unfortunately for the troop, I have to say that most of the boys in our pack aren't those kind of boys, so I don't think the pack will be a very good feeder pack for them as it currently stands. Although I do agree with Fred that there are some fundamental issues that arise with troop-shopping, I do think that different troops meet different needs. The 5 boys in my den are joining 3 different troops because there was something in each troop that sparked an interest for them. Unfortunately, none of the troops is the CO troop.


                  • #28

                    Give it time with your son's troop. I know the troop I grew up in would put new Scouts parents in committee roles before asking them to be ASMs. Part of it was to get them 'deprogrammed" from Cub Scouts, as there are BIG differences between the programs, also it gave the parents the chance to 'get away" from the Scouts and see the troop as it is suppose to be run. Also it gives them a chance to get trained.

                    I think it's a good thing, heck I am now a MC with my son's troop and know I need "deprogramming" ( Let's just say I had fun poking fun at me and reviewing summer camp).

                    I think the reason why the Pack's CO's troop is having the problems they are is because the current SM was a boy scout leader less than 12 months and wasn't fully trained until after taking over, and the parents on the committee were all CS leaders with less than a year as BS leaders.


                    The mass exodus had more to do with the parents than the Scouts. The parents were comfortable with the leader.

                    And while what you describe is the case most of the time, it is not always so. My old den didn't follow me to a different CO's troop. Only 1 of the guys is in a troop, and in all honesty he picked it b/c my son was going there, or did my son pick it becasue he was going there?

                    Also I know of 4 brothers who were in 2 different troops. I pray that doesn't happen to me, but the Scout need to decide.


                    • #29
                      I agree with much of what you've written, Fred, especially regarding the herd mentality. No, there isn't much informed decision making, mostly just following the den leader or the alpha kids in the den. Our troop was on the road to oblivion when my older son and I joined for just this reason. Prior to our joining the troop split off another troop and for three years all the Webelos from the pack followed their older brothers and den leaders to the new troop. I'm proud to say, that my son was the one to make the decision to stay with the CO troop and pulled a handful of his friends along. My first 18 months in the troop I was still Cubmaster and invested a great deal of effort into recruiting the Webelos and rebuilding relationships with the pack.
                      The relationship between a pack and troop is a two-way street. Unfortunately, too many Pack leaders have a 'what have you done for me lately' attitude toward their brother troop. I've sat through any number of Webelos Transition classes and Roundtable presentations which reinforce this attitude. They tend to be long laundry list of things the troop should be doing for the pack and not much more. I've literally had pack leaders elbow me and ask, "why aren't you doing all that stuff for us?" For one, the guy doing the presentation is full of mud. But mostly because it's not the troop's job to serve the pack. We are here to serve the Scouts in our respective units. In many cases, the troop leaders HAVE served the pack for many years, establishing the pack program the current leaders inherited. That fancy Pinewood Derby track you're using? My guys sold the popcorn to pay for it. The scripts you still use for rank presentations, Arrow of Light and crossover? I wrote them 12 years ago. Neither bragging nor complaining, just pointing out there is a longer view that last week's den meeting.
                      Which is precisely the point of the UK-style Scout group and an assumed continuum through one CO's units -- institutional legs. It does give you the opportunity to build more sustainable programs. To a lesser degree that still applies despite the unnecessary and artificial divide between Pack and Troop.
                      All that said, we put a great deal of effort into the care and feeding of our brother pack. As SM I probably attend half the pack leaders' meetings through the year. We make a BIG DEAL (emphasis AND SHOUTING, E92) of our annual Webelos campout. We do our best to recruit and train capable Den Chief’s for the pack BUT we expect the Den Leaders to take the time to understand what a Den Chief’s actual job is and that the DL is the DC supervisor and mentor in what is a Troop-level position of responsibility. We work together with the pack on Scouting for Food and invite the pack to breakfast the morning before we do the collections. Our patrols spend a month or more preparing a great program for the Webelos campout every fall. We expect the pack leaders and parents to understand the campout is a big deal and important part of the transition and supporting our efforts by showing up with their Webelos.

                      In return we get Cubs, Cub leaders and parents who have a better-than-usual understanding of Boy Scouts and are excited to join our troop. Shopping is not a question.

                      As for Den Leaders with a foot in another troop, I do believe they owe the chartered organization’s troop something. A reasonable expectation should be for them to not influence their den’s decision to go to the other troop. If, as a parent, you believe your boys are better off in a different troop, fine. But at minimum you should be neutral about the troop the other boys in your den/pack select.


                      • #30

                        Although I cited an example of 2 brothers joining a different troop than their 2 older brothers, I have to agree with ya on the "herd mentality." I think part of it is the familiarity and relationships that have developed, i.e. they know what their brothers are doing, here the stories, get jealous, etc. But sometimes the being with their friends does win out. That is what happened with my friends younger brothers: their pack had a great relationship with the troop, and the entire den went together into the same troop. I will admit, I do hope that all my boys join the same troop, just to make my life easier , but if they go their different ways, then I don't have a problem with it. SWMBO may have issues, but I won't.

                        I agree with you 100% in that the troop-pack relationship IS (emphasis) a two way streak. The comment about Den Leaders properly using Den Chiefs is 110% spot on. I remember not being utilized by the DL I was a DC for and hated it. I had to move on to another den. And the same thing happened to my old DC. I gave him up to the Webelos Den that needed someone with outdoor experience when they lost their DL. New DL utilized him for camp prep, but then quickly stopped using him. DC stayed until the end of the pack year, and stopped being their DC. Glad he's back, and I will shortly have him running the den meetings totally while I sit back and drink water.

                        And I also admit I may be somewhat guilty of Webelos-to-Scout transition problem. I know when I've talked about it to scout leaders, I've emphasized their role, i.e. developing a relationship with the cub leaders, contacting the packs and setting up a visit and overnighter, sending DC's if possible, etc. I haven't really talked about the roles of the pack, i.e. promoting the troop visit and overnighter, using the DC’s properly, inviting them to some Webelos activities, etc.

                        One of the problems I see with the implementation of a UK group method is leader exhaustion. Let’s face it, Cubs is leader intensive, and most leaders look forward to moving on and dealing with less stress. Heck, I am already counting down until I am no longer a Cub Scout leader ( 5 more years, 5 more years! LOL).

                        Locally, I see this divide on the district level where I am the only active Cub leader on the district committee. If I don’t interject CS questions and stuff, we get overlooked.

                        OH HECK YEAH THE WEBELOS OVERNITER IS A BIG DEAL! In my experience, the Webelos Overnighter is what hooks the Cubs on the troop, or in the case of my son, completely throws them off. It does need to be well planned and executed, although I did experience one Webelos Overnighter that everything was pulled out of the magic hat the nite before when the troop discovered all of their tents and most of their gear was damaged beyond use and repair when they went to load up the trailer the nite before the overniter (don’t ask, BUT that overniter started a new tradition with the troop: Wilderness Survival Weekend with the Webelos. BEST. RECRUITING. TOOL. EVER! and yes that is me shouting in joy at the memories of that, and succeeding overniters. )

                        The visit before the overniter is where the parents get comfortable with the troop, at least when we didn’t have a feeder pack. Once we had a feeder pack, you are 110% correct in that joint activities are the best to establishing a healthy relationship with the pack.

                        I will admit, being neutral about the pack’s CO’s troop was the absolute hardest thing for me to do. I did not want to hurt the troop, and my fear in having my son announce where he was going too soon was having the entire den follow the “Alpha Cub.” In fact I hope and have prayed that one of the CS leaders who just moved up takes over as SM and turns the troop around as he made some comments about what he sees the troop needs to improve, and he has knowledge, skills, and abilities to do a great job.

                        But what has made neutrality really difficult for me was listening to the older Scouts who have lost interest in the troop, and either transfer, leave Scouting altogether, or as in my Den Chief’s case, only remain registered with the troop so that A) he can be in the OA still, and B) serve as a Den Chief for his cousin. Further, it really hurt me when I saw boys that I recruited for the troop 6 months later, and find out that they are no longer interested in scouting because it’s boring, too much like school, and they didn’t do any camping.

                        I did my best to help the troop in offering advice to the troop's adult leaders to improve the troop, recruiting new Scouts for them when I had some reservations about them, offering ideas to have a good Webelos Overnighter that would hook my old den onto them, and have even stayed overnight camping with them in order to have 2 deep leadership when everyone left but the SM, his son, and 1 new Scout whose mom was out of town that weekend. So I do have a bit of loyalty to them, and will remain neutral.