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  • #16
    Funny thing is..Scouters want to go and Stay where they have fun and are Comfortable...Honestly as a Scout I went where I felt I was welcome..I did not care if it was "Boy" ran or "Adult" run.. I cared for Structure..when I moved back to Wichita Falls Texas...I visited several Troops

    First Troop ( a Large Troop) I visited I was sat down and Shown My Schedule to Eagle...planned out to the Minute already. Never Introduced to the Boys
    Second Troop (another Large Troop) It was a Rabble..no Structure..Boys running everywhere
    3rd Troop ( a Small One)..It was Structured..They were well mannered, I was sent out after Opening to visit with the Boys..The Boys learned from the Elders and were respectful. They had Awards on Walls, They participated in all Council Events..They never Missed an Event

    Needless to say I picked the Third Troop ...Troop 6

    Scouts go to the Best Troops they stay by Choice
    If a Troop gets a reputation of "selecting" scouts and Turning away Scouts they will run themselves down to a point where they will fail.
    Over the Years a Certain Troop here was Know as an Eagle Factory..They were Known to Hand Select Scouts based "Eagle" Material, They Did not Attend Council Events, Now They are a Shell of a Troop they once were.

    Comment


    • Eagledad
      Eagledad commented
      Editing a comment
      Reputation is the biggest risk of setting a limit to size. Eventual failure is pretty typical. But Bases program appears to be a stricter than average program anyway with the attendance requirements and appears to be working for them. The success of the program is a direct relation of the SM. It is very likely that Bases replacement will have different results. I've done this awhile and it is likely that Bases replacement will not have as good of success either. I would not recommend Bases program style to other SMs, but it does seem to work for him. Hard to say Bases replacement will have a mess to clean up. The future depends on Bases pride and humility. But he is off to a good start and that is rare. Hard to mess with success. Barry

    • Basementdweller
      Basementdweller commented
      Editing a comment
      I don't view the program as successful.

      Until my SPL runs the complete meeting and outing for the month it will still be a work in progress. Still a lot of mentoring going on behind the scenes and at the meetings.

  • #17
    I'm pleased to see this discussion, because my Troop has had a similar trajectory to Basement's, growing from 11 to 33 in 2 years. Our internal discussion has revolved around similar issues - how big do we want to be? My personal view is that I don't want to be walking around at Summer Camp, see a Scout and not be sure if he's one of mine. I can see the Troop at 50 before that happens (and I think recruiting this spring will take us over 40).

    However, I really struggle with my primary issue, which is this: what is my moral responsibility to boys in Scouting in general? It seems to me the most likely result of locking down your numbers and turning boys away is that boys who otherwise would get the benefit of Scouting will either never join the program or will quit after only a short time. As mentioned just above, boys choose a Troop based on a variety of reasons. Your Troop may be perfect for a boy, and none other will do. You have failed any boy you turn away who never joins a Troop.

    Comment


    • qwazse
      qwazse commented
      Editing a comment
      I'd take Stosh's approach and have the Fire Inspector give you the capacity of your troop's meeting place. That's your upper limit for totals of youth and adults. If you are reaching that volume, you should have a couple of capable adults to train. They'll get so good that some of them will spin off a new unit, and you'll be back under your maximum in less than a year!

    • Basementdweller
      Basementdweller commented
      Editing a comment
      I have yet to tell a scout that we are full and cannot accept his membership application. Who knows that may never happen.

  • #18
    Eagledad, are you kidding?

    "The problem with your philosophy stosh is that boys don't start or build troops. A troop is only as boy run as the vision of the the adults driving the program."

    Adults do not drive the program, and the vision isn't ours. As adult leaders our job is not to come up with the vision, but rather to provide the youth with the tools needed to make the vision a reality.

    Stosh, I know the difference between youth ran, and not, don't worry about that one. It's the whole providing the tools thing, maybe I was providing some instructions on usage. In the end it's all up to the scouts, but the training, and personal growth, we provide/foster, does shape the youth leaders who make the decisions.

    Comment


    • perdidochas
      perdidochas commented
      Editing a comment
      I'm with EagleDad. A troop cannot survive much less thrive without an adult with vision. There is only so much that the boys can do. This world doesn't allow minors to do a whole lot.

    • jblake47
      jblake47 commented
      Editing a comment
      We might be mincing words here, but a troop with an adult vision goal is not the same as a boy vision goal. Adult vision issues seem to lead to what Basement was referring to as SM ego driven and that can apply to a troop of any size.

      I will concede that an adult goal of boy-led is an exception to the rule, but those troops are far and few between.

      Perdidochas: The WORLD is not the same as US society. There are far more cultures in the world that have adults well before the US gets around to recognizing them. As a matter of fact most cultures do not have the "teen" adolescent years. The US culture/society doesn't allow arbitrarily determined "minors" to do a whole lot. Just try and remember, the youngest Congressional Medal of Honor awardee was 12 years old.

      Don't compare our myopic view of the world as "normal".

      Stosh

    • Eagledad
      Eagledad commented
      Editing a comment
      Your right stosh, you're mincing words. A good boy run troop requires an adult with vision. Barry

  • #19
    The key to not only understanding what I’m saying, but how a troop should work, is shockingly found in the SM Handbook. Where each SPL administration starts is with a meeting with the SM, where the SPL’s and the SM’s vision ‘s are forged into a “a shared vision” which becomes the roadmap for the SPL’s term.

    Where I think we’re splitting hairs is the Scoutmaster’s vision is not for the SPL’s term of office, but is the unit’s long term plan, and one that includes the Charter Org’s expectations, and that of the committee. I did not explain all of this before, as I assumed anyone engaging in this conversation had completed scoutmaster’s training.

    Before anyone suggests otherwise, this does work. Throughout my tenure as SM I did this with each new SPL, and delivery of a written vision statement was required to be considered for election. The “Shared Vision” statement became the focal point of The Troop Leader Training (yes I know it has a new name don’t recall it offhand). After Troop Leader Training our officers would have a lock in where there would create an outline of how they were going to attempt to accomplish each point of the “shared vision” statement; this outline was used as a roadmap for the PLC over the SPL’s term.

    The troop I was Scoutmaster of grew to be the largest in our district, as well as the most active. We were, and remain, fully youth ran. All adults do other than provide the youth with the tools they need, is sign checks, and drive scouts to events .. of yea, we do the Tour Plans.

    I’ve successfully used the same formula of vision statements, training, and an officer created outline that becomes the roadmap as an OA advisor, Crew Advisor, Roundtable Commissioner, and ADC in charge of commissioner training. It works every time, so long as the statements are delivered prior to being allowed to assume an office, and on the date of the assuming office the training and lockin dates are set.

    This is a program which follows a mantra like this nation: a program of the scouts, for the scouts, by the scouts.

    Comment


    • #20
      Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
      ... fully youth ran. All adults do ... sign ... and drive ... do the Tour Plans.
      My opinion -- (not nationals): we're only mostly youth-run as long as adults are doing the Tour Plans.

      Not too bothered by that. Fact is, when you have driven youth, adults will rally around to support them. Sometimes that support comes by way of running the bureaucracy on their behalf.

      Comment


      • #21
        I've never considered having the youth do the tour plans, but I don't see any reason they couldn't.

        Comment


        • qwazse
          qwazse commented
          Editing a comment
          I started having my VP-admin do them when they were just a fill-in-the-blank pdf. Then we went to the scouter.org online system, and I have barely learned to use the thing myself! Far as I can tell there is no direct way for a youth to create an account and develop the plan.

      • #22
        eagledad, I guess I'll have to concede an adult vision of boy-led is an okay goal.

        Comment

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