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  • 2 deep leadership for activity

    Okay Scout is planning an adventure where troop will go on a zip line run by a company.
    Groups of 8 travel through the towers, runs, and stations with 2 guides. Groups are about 30 minutes apart on the system. (All this takes place in cell phone coverage area.)

    Here is the question: Scout believes he needs 2 adults for EACH group of 6 scouts to cover 2 deep leadership. (Of course this is a lot of adults to recruit for the campout. Let alone ones who want to pay to ride the zip.)

    That isn't my understanding and I gently encouraged him to follow up with the CC to get the straight dope.

    But, can someone who is up on the GTSS quote me chapter and verse on adult coverage of these groups?

    ~ AK

  • #2
    Don't have the G2SS in front of me, but it is a minimum of 2 adults per OVERNITE TRIP.

    So if this is a DAY TRIP, no adults are needed. If an overniter, then a minimum of 2 adults are needed. Also no "one on one" contact, so one adult needs to be with 2 youths, unless the single youth is the leader's child.

    Comment


    • #3
      Congratulations to scout for planning an awesome day! Make sure he arranges for sufficient coffee and snacks for the two adults who will wait for them patiently back at camp.

      Comment


      • #4
        The online version of GTSS is supposed to be the most up to date. I never liked "few instances, such as patrol activities" language. They say a few, and then only list two: day hikes and service projects. ( assuming few means three or more, otherwise wouldn't they have used the word couple ?) What is this "other" patrol activity that does not require leadership ? So if all the patrols go on separate hikes no adults are required ? What happens if two patrols bump into each other ? Run away or the adults will get in trouble ? Eagle92 I don't see DAY TRIP mentioned in this passage. I do see ALL TRIPS. Maybe there is another source that clarifies this somewhere ? Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activities— even those including parent and child—require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.

        Comment


        • Scouter99
          Scouter99 commented
          Editing a comment
          Dudebrah, you say you don't see "day trips" then quote the part that says patrols can go on day hikes by themselves, and that adults are only required for overnight outings.

        • King Ding Dong
          King Ding Dong commented
          Editing a comment
          It says "required on all trips and outings". Then gives exceptions to that. Those exception are only for patrols on day hikes and service projects. Not cycling or swimming or anything else. It also seems to me that the exception is only for a patrol activity not a troop day hike or sevice project.

          It doesn't make sense to me, but that's what it says. Help me understand.

          What is the purpose of "all trips and outings" ?

          I don't see where is says adults are "only" needed for overnight outings. I see an affirmation that "appropriate" adult leadership is required on all overnight outings.

          The SM and two committee members are lawyers, I am not. This is how they see it without something concrete to stand on I am stuck with this.

          Lol. Had to look up dudebrah on Unrban Dictionary. The need to make a BSA Speak dictionary.
          Last edited by King Ding Dong; 08-13-2013, 09:13 AM.

        • Scouter99
          Scouter99 commented
          Editing a comment
          I also have a lot of lawyers in my troop who constantly conflate 2 deep and 1-on-1, email your DE with your question, and he will give you the definite answer. My reply below is exactly what my DE told me. It doesn't stop the lawyers from continuing to be wrong, but it does stop them from threatening me.

          As far as nitpicking the wordchoice of "day hike" rather than day trip, they're being idiots. Are all field trips in a field? Swimming is its own issue because of the Safe Swim requirements, but biking, etc that don't have their own unique rules are no different that a day hike. And if they're really pigheaded, you can point out to them that scouts commonly call bike trips "bike hikes" so a day of biking is a "day hike."

          I don't know why you don't find a new troop. Even if the activity levels are comparable, there has to be a less idiotic troop nearby.
          Last edited by Scouter99; 08-13-2013, 10:45 AM.

      • #5
        This is a common misunderstanding.
        2 Deep is the rule for adult leadership on overnight camping trips.
        No one-on-ne contact is the rule governing scout-adult contact.

        2 Deep, therefore, does not apply to troop meetings, PLCs, day activities approved by the SM, etc. It does not mean that two adults must always be in the presence of each other on a single overnight trip, nor does it mean that two adults must accompany any breakaway group on a single overnight trip. It simply means that if the boys are staying somewhere overnight, there must be two adults with them.

        No one-on-one contact applies to every scouting situation. It simply means that an adult may not be alone with a youth; you can accomplish that by having a minimum of 2 youths and 1 adult, or 2 adults and 1 youth.

        Comment


        • #6
          Here is the actual quote: from page 4
          1. Two-deep leadership.

          Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required ( emphasis added) and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. ( emphais added)

          Patrol activities can include patrol meetings, patrol shake downs, grocery shopping, etc. I am willing to bet that when the G2SS was edited to remove patrol overnite camping, 2011 or 12, they just took out the camping section from this sentence. If memory serves that last sentence use to read " With the proper training, guidance, and approval of troop leaders, the patrol can conduct overnight camping trips,day hikes, and service projects."

          Comment


          • #7
            More basic to the question is......

            I am gonna bet a million bucks that the Zip Line company has a person over age 18 doing the hook ups on the tour......So if your worried about it Staff member can count as your second adult.


            Or a simpler solution is the adults drive the unit to the event and then pull out the camp chairs and hang out in the parking lot.

            Comment


            • #8
              Scouter99 identified the crux of the issue. Two deep leadership is required for the trip. That does not mean that everyone on the trip must be in the presence of those two adults every moment of the trip. There are any number of instances on a trip where scouts are outside the presence of adults - latrine, fetching water, fishing, etc. As long as they follow the buddy system and avoid one-on-one youth/adult situations, there is no problem.

              Comment


              • Scouter99
                Scouter99 commented
                Editing a comment
                Exactly, T2E.

              • JoeBob
                JoeBob commented
                Editing a comment
                On the long cables through the trees, you can't see your end point. It is out of sight, just barely, briefly. That's part of the fun, stepping off into the unseen; and then hearing the cable zing before you see your buddies come cruising out of the trees.

                http://northgeorgiacanopyto.reachlocal.net/
                http://northgeorgiacanopyto.reachloc...Sort=1&Page=24

                Any stickler who thinks that being 1 on 1 on any of these platforms is a YPT violation, under zipline conditions; needs to go back to their law office and stop scaring the boys (and volunteers).

              • Pack18Alex
                Pack18Alex commented
                Editing a comment
                It's Ziplining, there should be someone working on the Zipline at the booth, that's your second adult (doesn't provide 2-Deep, 2-Deep requires two leaders or one leader + one parent), but does cover No-1-on-1. Regarding the 1-on-1 issue.

                Technically, the leader should never be with a youth, not their child, alone and out of site... Pretty simple though, if there is no employee on the platform, just a parent, the last Scout to go is the Parent's child (1-on-1 doesn't apply to your children), then the parent goes.

                So if you have two parents, one goes EITHER 1st, 2nd (after their child), or 3rd, and one goes last after their child.

                If you have one parent, he goes 1st (with his child going second), he goes last (with his child second to last), or he goes anywhere between spot #3 and 3rd from last, therefore preventing him from being in 1-on-1.

                It's not really that hard to avoid one-on-one issues.

            • #9
              AK,

              You are NOT telling us how many Scouts are attending this event. 6 - 8 or 30 - 50. The argument for "Patrol Activity" may be mute. If the "Troop" is going, the adults should be there. They are NOT required to follow each group, but if it is a long zip-line (like a canopy tour) you might want to have a couple of adults at the beginning and end for Safety sake. Those adults should have a working communications system (cell phone, walkie-talkies,...) to let the other group know of any problems (medical or otherwise).

              My $0.02 for what it is worth.

              Comment


              • Scouter99
                Scouter99 commented
                Editing a comment
                It's "moot."

              • ghermanno
                ghermanno commented
                Editing a comment
                Ooopps. Thanks Scouter99

              • Scouter99
                Scouter99 commented
                Editing a comment
                Sure thing. Pet peeve.

            • #10
              Well here is another issue that may be called into Question..Does this Private Company meet the requirements of BSA Certification for Climb on Safely. If Not Does the group have someone with the right training. I was trying to take my Den to a Local Climbing Tower and Indoor Climbing Facilities but Council said no because the trained professionals were not certified by the BSA Recognized Training Groups..Facilities meet all State Mandated Training and Safety Inspections. So We all just happened to end up there at the same time and did not work on BSA Stuff..

              Comment


              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                I am glad you are feeling so superior today.

              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                I don't have anything to say about the council program......

                But wait, I do.... I can pick programs to take my scouts to that offer the most activities and value for the dollar. My local council does not offer webelos activities such as use of the rappelling tower or horse back riding......so we go to other councils that are less expensive and offer more/better activities.

                Why should I apologize because your council doesn't offer it and folks just accept it...... Take your money and scouts elsewhere and get them the program they deserve.......

              • Scouter99
                Scouter99 commented
                Editing a comment
                I don't understand you two's disagreement, since KDD said neither Cubs nor Webs could use a climbing tower, BD said Webs can rappel and cubs can climb, KDD quoted the rules which confirm BD, (here's where I lost you two) then BD kept up the offensive despite being right . . .
                KDD said "fairly certain" based on his council experience, now he knows his council is just more restrictive than the national policies.

            • #11
              Okay an update on the trip. 6 scouts went. 3 adults for the camping 2 deep. An adult was required on the ride with the 2 guides because of the contractor's requirements for the age of the scouts. Two of the adults did the easy chair thing while scouts were ziping.

              Good time was had by all, weather was great, scout who was the leader was pleased with the event, and no one got a GTSS ticket.

              Thanks for the feedback.

              Comment

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