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Let's put the God/morality issue to rest

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  • #16
    Each Person's Duty to God is defined by their own personal belief..A southern Baptist's Duty is not the Same as an Orthodx Jew's...nor is theirs the Same as a United Methodist..or theirs as a latter Day Saints...yu get the picture

    However every Member Youth or Adult must be willing to say the Scout Oath and Law and attempt to adhere to it to the best of their ability
    ...ie raise their right hand and make the Scout Sign and Say the Scout law and Oath. If ya can not do it...find somewhere else to have fun..

    I never tried to change the program to fit my needs. I attend a Church on Scout Sunday if I can....thats about it..I personally don't believe in an Organized Religion.

    Comment


    • #17
      Ah Merlyn, you're on a boat without a rudder at the mercy of moralities turbulent waters. No better peace than your hand on a tiller to navigate yourself around the guys the big sticks.

      The BSAs answer to your direct question is treat others with the same chacater as god. In this case, trust, loyal, serving, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave clean, and reverent. That is the direct answer to your direct question and peace in the world.

      By the way, I have a rudder you can borrow.

      Barry

      Comment


      • #18
        "That is the direct answer to your direct question and peace in the world."

        That must be why religious people never go to war against each other. BWAHAHAHAHA!



        "Ah Merlyn, you're on a boat without a rudder at the mercy of moralities turbulent waters."

        Well no, but you're missing my point entirely.

        A Deist is perfectly acceptable to the BSA, and a Deist or a scout who takes his god to be "a rock or a stream" can make up his morality just like an atheist can.
        They have no rudder either, yet somehow you don't say they aren't fit for the BSA.

        You have no answer to that.

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        • #19
          >>Well no, you are missing my point entirely

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          • #20
            >>You have no answer to that.

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            • #21
              Of course I have an answer, but as you can see, my computer is struggling with this new reply field.

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              • #22
                Merlyn,
                The BSA allows a member to follow their god, not mine. How that members god defines acceptable food (behavior) is between that member and his god.
                Another member and his god may have a different view on that same subject.
                But you know that; you're just being thick to be argumentative.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Second Class, Eagledad suggested an obviously false "reason" for excluding atheists; it's obviously false because some theists who are acceptable to the BSA can derive and have morals that are exactly the same as an atheist, yet they are not rejected. It's like someone defending a club that excludes Jews by saying it's because they can't eat bacon, but the same club admits Muslims and vegetarians, neither of which eats bacon either, which shows that the "reason" for excluding Jews is nonsensical. The BSA excludes atheists for no reason except animus towards atheists; it can't have anything to do with an atheist's morals because they allow other people who are theists who can have identically-derived morals. Eagledad's reason is just a non-excuse for discriminating against atheists.

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                  • #24
                    It's not a "false" reason because whose to say the rock isn't omnipotent, certainly not the BSA. God is the perfect creator of all things and unchanging, so by default he is the final authority on morality. Atheist have no moral source leaving them to make it up as they go along. The BSA wants boys to learn to be followers of the oath and law, not creators. Without God, morality defaults to the guy with the biggest stick.

                    Barry

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                    • NJCubScouter
                      NJCubScouter commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Although it's probably a dangerous thing to presume to speak for Merlyn, I think what he is saying is that believing in God (or a higher power, Supreme Being or whatever) does not necessarily mean that you believe that God prescribed moral laws for mankind. I suppose I fall into that category. I believe that "creation" was set in motion by a higher power (which for the sake of convention, I call God), but I believe very little else of what organized religions believe. Among the things I don't believe is that God gave us moral commands; I believe that for better or for worse, we came up with those ourselves. So if the BSA policy on religion was founded on the basis that you say it is, I don't belong in the BSA either. But it isn't, and I do.

                    • packsaddle
                      packsaddle commented
                      Editing a comment
                      I am fascinated by persons who claim that without the dictates of a supernatural power, they are unable to figure out a moral code on their own.
                      As far as the rock god goes, I'm ok with people worshiping a rock. I'm especially glad that BSA approves membership for those who do. But should anyone point to a rock on the ground and try to convince me that THAT rock is a greater source of morality than human intellect, I'll have to make the distinction that while it may be true for 'their' intellect, it isn't for mine.

                    • Merlyn_LeRoy
                      Merlyn_LeRoy commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Eagledad, a Deist who believes in a god that has NOTHING to do with humanity has to make up his own morals just like an atheist. And as for a rock, the BSA doesn't require that the scout believes the rock to be omnipotent, either -- that's a requirement YOU are adding to support your false reasoning.

                      "God is the perfect creator of all things and unchanging"

                      That's YOUR god, that's not what the BSA requires. Stop adding nonexistent requirements.

                      "so by default he is the final authority on morality"

                      Again, that's YOUR god, a Deist's god can be COMPLETELY UNCONCERNED about morals, or even not be aware that humans exist at all. You continue to make up requirements for other people's gods to support your false reasoning.

                      "Atheist have no moral source leaving them to make it up as they go along."

                      EXACTLY like a Deist. So why aren't Deists rejected?

                      "Without God, morality defaults to the guy with the biggest stick."

                      No, that's not morality, that's just an enforcer, and your god is the typical theistic enforcer with the biggest stick possible. Or do you deny hell?

                  • #25

                    Comment


                    • Merlyn_LeRoy
                      Merlyn_LeRoy commented
                      Editing a comment

                    • Merlyn_LeRoy
                      Merlyn_LeRoy commented
                      Editing a comment
                      PS: By the way, the BSA doesn't require that the god a scout believes in has created the universe, for that matter. As far as I can tell, the BSA has NO requirements or properties of any kind that a god must meet in order to be acceptable.
                      (for some reason, I can't add this to my previous comment; the editor fails saying I exceeded the time limit to change the title .. ?)

                  • #26

                    >>You still aren't getting it; I'm not addressing the BSA, I'm addressing YOUR rationalization for the BSA's exclusion of atheists, which can't be right because the BSA doesn't exclude other people for the same reasons -- only atheists.<<


                    How is that different from my morning coffee analogy?

                    Hey Merlyn, the BSA doesn't care whose god the scout uses, even if he make it up along the way. It's that simple. I can see how putting a omniscient rock obove an athiest could be degrading, but as I asked before, who is to say the rock doesn't speak?

                    You need to make up something new for the BSA to look evil. Oh sorry, I mean, mean.

                    >>Uh, nobody said "incapable". I'm capable of sticking peanuts up my nose,<<

                    I'm sure you are, but that comment wasn't a reference to you the athiest, it was in reference to NJ who believes god created the universe and then packed out. Does that make NJ a diest?

                    Barry

                    Comment


                    • #27
                      "How is that different from my morning coffee analogy?"

                      Besides entirely?

                      "Hey Merlyn, the BSA doesn't care whose god the scout uses, even if he make it up along the way. It's that simple"

                      Which means your excuse for why the BSA excludes atheists (they don't have an "untouchable source of moral direction") doesn't work, because, as you yourself say, the BSA allows scouts who make up a god along the way. So it's OK to make up a god and morals, just not OK to skip the imaginary middleman and make up morals. But that still contradicts your initial reason for the BSA's exclusion of atheists. You're now admitting that a scout can make up a god, instead of requiring an "untouchable source of moral direction".

                      "I'm sure you are, but that comment wasn't a reference to you the athiest, it was in reference to NJ who believes god created the universe and then packed out. Does that make NJ a diest?"

                      I'd call him that, but it's probably better to ask him, not me. But NJCubScouter didn't say his god was incapable of a relationship with man, either.

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                      • #28
                        Now admitting? Hmmm.

                        Merlyn, red is not blue, it will always be red.

                        Barry

                        Comment


                        • #29
                          Yes, how is a made-up god an "untouchable source of moral direction" when the scout can just change his god's mind the next day?

                          By the way, red is not red when it's moving towards you at 80,000 km/s, then it's shifted to blue.

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                          • #30
                            >>Yes, how is a made-up god an "untouchable source of moral direction" when the scout can just change his god's mind the next day?<<

                            God's mind didn't change, the scout's understanding of god's wisdom changed from his daily experiences of life. That is why the BSA program is such a great experience.

                            Barry

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