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Women and siblings on campouts

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  • #31
    While the CSE is encouraging units to do family camping, I do hope that if a PLC decides that they do NOT want parents and siblings at camp outs, save registered leaders and members of course, than National will respect those wishes and not mandate the parents and siblings policy.

    Yes I was part of a troop that had that policy after a major trip was ruined by parents refusing to allow the Scouts to do the hike that they had trained and prepared for, as siblings who did several hundred of dollars in damage by allowing water to overflow from a bathroom sink that seeped to the basement classrooms. PLC and scouts were extremely upset that our 3 day weekend trip was ruined.


    On another note, this reminds me of a fundamental change that the BSA made in the 1970s when they took the OUTING out of ScOUTING. Scouting lost it's sense of adventure and fun when they did that, and the BSA has not recovered completely, despite evrythign that GBB did. Sounds like they want to make Boy Scouts Webelos III.

    Comment


    • #32
      Eagle92,

      I agree totally with you about not allowing siblings on campouts, I disagree with the parent part. Most parents would not let their kids join something that they could never see. I would be very suspicious of a Troop that didn't allow parents. That said, I also think parents on outings should be like a good SM or ASM, and sit back and watch the kids, and not be involved in the activities (unless it's an outing like bicycling, hiking or canoeing).

      Comment


      • #33
        While our troop allowed parents to go, they needed to be trained parents, so they knew what to do. they needed to get the essentials done before they could go on any trip. These now can be done on-line in a few hours. When we made the rule, they could get done withing a month or two if not in our district, then a neighboring district. And we let the parents of the crossover pack know months before their children crossed over.

        Then they had a year to get the outdoor Leader training and SM/ASM specific training done. If not done after a year, they were banned from going until they got it done.

        Still we would have some parents who would take their kids to other troops because of our "unfair" rules.

        Since you can't ban parents/guardians from going due to you can't have anything secret. (You can't even at an OA ordeal, though they try disuade you.) But, you can put in rules that are fair for everyone to obtain, that make sure that the adults are not the ones that the SM & ASM have to worry about and watch during a campout.

        But, a sibling or other children not registered with BSA, would not be insured. If there is an accident, you and/or the CO are personally responsible, not BSA. So they can be banned from going.

        Comment


        • #34
          The Patrol Leaders' Council does not have the authority to violate BSA Policy. They cannot vote to exclude adults from Troop Activities. If adults have "ruined" a campout, it is because the Adult Leaders did not orient the new parents. I suggest this process should begin when the parents visit the troop with their Webelos son. Hand them a Parents' Handbook that effectively explains Scouting to them and how they fit in. It should also include what Grownups do on Campouts. This book must make it Crystal Clear that adults DO NOT VOTE on whether or not Scouts may execute a properly planned troop activity and that includes the Troop Committee.

          The following is the adult camping procedures from our parents' book:

          THE ADULT PATROL
          "THE OLD TIMER PATROL"
          PURPOSE:
          1. Provide support to the troop program and the adult troop leaders.
          2. Be a positive adult role model. Boys copy adults with whom they are close;
          the "Old Timer Patrol" can be an important influence for good in a boy's
          life.

          GUIDELINES:
          A. Set the example. When camping, being clean and properly dressed, helping
          with the camp chores, keeping your gear in good order and maintaining a
          cheerful outlook can have more influence on a boy than you can imagine.

          B. All negative behavior such as profanity, obscene, ethnic, sexist or racist
          jokes, possession or consumption of alcoholic beverages is not allowed.
          Smoking, Dipping and chewing of tobacco is prohibited by boys and adults.

          C. Liquid fuels are not allowed for fire starting by Scout or Adult.

          D. Let the Scouts learn by doing it themselves; don't do it for them just
          because you know how or you can do it better. If they are bogged down,
          give them a timely suggestion offered in the form of a question. This will
          give them a hint toward the solution but still require them to think
          through to the problem's solution.

          D. Except for short friendly visits, stay out of the patrol campsites,
          especially your son's campsite. When you visit, be sure to ask permission
          to enter their camp (we expect this same courtesy of them).

          E. At troop activities, refrain from any disciplinary action toward your son,
          the troop and his patrol has rules and they will deal with him ,if needed.
          If you must have words with your son or any other boy, remember that except
          for dire circumstances, we praise in public and criticize in private. Plan
          ahead, have another Scouter have words with your son and you return the
          favor with his son. Ask yourself, were I not here, would what he did cause
          a Scoutmaster phone call to you at home? If not and you jump his case
          anyway, he may lose interest in Scouts.

          F. The Scouts have an open invitation to the adult campsite. We welcome their
          Company , but sometimes, when their stay is overly long, they need to be
          reminded there is a schedule of activities they are missing or they
          probably have patrol duties they need to fulfill. Some Scouts will, on
          occasion, use a visit to the adult campsite to get out of their patrol
          duties, especially if it is his turn for clean-up duties.

          G. Be a Friend. Give praise and compliments for jobs well done and even praise
          the good parts of jobs not so well done and encourage them to do better for
          their own satisfaction.

          F. Remember the senior patrol leader is in charge, if there is a problem
          discuss it with him and the Scoutmaster; the SPL or the PLC will handle
          it. If there is serious danger to life or limb, assume the role of a
          guardian/parent.

          Our Parents' Book has detailed description of Committee procedures besides new parent insight. It works for 70-90 boy troops and with editing, work for any troop. Drop me an email and I will send you a copy and it's copyright free.

          Ol' Thunderfox
          Longhorn Council
          SC-149

          Comment


          • #35
            A couple of observations:

            1 Siblings, whether boy or girl, should not be on any scouting trip (unless specifically designed to be a family event). So I guess, when my Eagle Scout son #1 went on the outing his Life Scout brother should not? Be careful what you post.

            2 Registered adult leaders in the troop should all be allowed to come along. Doesn't matter if they're male or female, rich or poor, snoring or non-snoring, black or white, or thin or (for the time being anyway) fat. A "registered" committee member has no more business (nor less business) going on a camping trip than an unregistered guardian. The only registered leaders who should have "preference" are Scoutmasters and their assistants.

            3 The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders. Agree with Beavah on this one. This does not imply that all may observe all. It implies that parents should know about the program - no secret parts. So, if a parent wants to know what an Ordeal Ceremony is all about in the OA they have a right to know, but not a right to attend or observe.

            4 If the PLC wants a "no women" rule and that is okay with the CO - so it goes.

            5 One of our trips (Gettysburg) was open to family. I chose not to go - it would have been my second trip there with the troop and my work load was horrible that weekend. My two sons (14 & 15) attended with their sister (12.5 years old) and mother (age not to be revealed ). Well they all had a fantastic time except Dad was not too happy when he found out that his daughter was being trailed by most of the 13 & 14 year old Scouts all weekend. Needless to say, she did not go on any more Scout outings.

            Comment


            • #36
              QUOTE:
              "4 If the PLC wants a "no women" rule and that is okay with the CO - so it goes. "

              This is a violation of BSA Policy.

              Comment


              • #37
                I disagree - it the PLC wants, and the CO agrees, they can have a no Jews, no Caucasions, no Methodists, etc. troop if they wish. That is the beauty (or curse depending on your view point) of a private organization.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Acco,
                  You may disagree all you wish, that is your right. But it is still a violation of BSA Policy.

                  You are effectively saying the PLC can do whatever it wants so long as the Chartering Organization approves. But the agreement the Chartering Organization signed, a Charter Agreement, says they will NOT violate BSA Policy; so their approval of BSA Policy Violations are null & void. By the way, litigationa arising from this situation will be individual to the Chartering Organization and the troop adults. BSA has clear bans on this therefor BSA's attorneys and insurance will not defend the violators!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    so how does the LDS not allow Women on campouts?

                    If I am wrong LDS scouters, please let me know. I am just stating what I think I know, I could be wrong, wouldnt be the first nor do I think it will be the last. Its a CO decision

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I agree that I'm no expert in this matter but I'd be more inclined to change my mind on this matter is you showed me the BSA policy instead of just stating that it violates policy.

                      Essentially, what I believe is that the CO has the right to be restrictive on who they want in their unit - that's all. Why they want this restriction (input from the PLC, vision from God, core belief, etc.) is irrelevant. But again, I'm no expert in this area.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Acco,
                        As to banning folks of certain beliefs and etnicity, you are partially correct.

                        If the Chatering Organization is a religious institution such as a Catholic Church, the institution, in whatever is the normal regualtory process of the insitution, may stipulate that members of the Scout troop, including adults must be Catholics. They could be more exclusive and say they must also attend their church.

                        But nowhere in BSA Policy are they allowed to restrict membership by race.

                        But now wee are off topic, and what the new thread might be is a rehash of bashing or supporting Civil Rights. But the bottom line is Scouting is for all no matter race, creed or color. So I decline to explore a self answering thread.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Old Grey Eagle,
                          The LDS Church makes restrictions within their observance of religious practices in accord with BSA policy as a Chartering Organization. It is not the troop PLC with CO approval. Also it is in accord with their Religion and is not discrimination of Race, Greed or Color.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            If the BSA exclude on the basis of greed, our numbers would shrink tremendously.

                            Comment

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