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  • #61
    I wonder what non-Christian scouts did back in the day?
    http://www.pinetreeweb.com/1929-times10.htm

    Comment


    • #62
      They stood in polite reverence to the proceedings the same as the Christian Scout should do if the World Jamboree happens to occur in some place like India, Israel or a Mid-eastern country. It's called "A Scout is Reverent".

      Stosh

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by packsaddle View Post
        Pack18Alex, Scouter99 and others, this is taking on characteristics that were not allowed in that experimental thread. I sense aggression and defensiveness in this discussion.
        I assure you all that no aggression or defense was intended in agreeing with my Jewish pal, if in more vivid language. I'm more than happy to adhere to the rules you're referring to if you'll favor me with a hyperlink, I don't see any threads started by MattR within the first 5 pages of this forum.

        If there's one thing for pre-modern times, its cosmopolitanism. Post-nationalism, there can't be any real coexistence. National identities and systems depend on creating identities that fit the biggest group, which creates minorities that must either leave or be given tolerance, which isn't acceptance. Without national identities there are no minorities to be mistreated based simply on identity or considerations to give them, no constant looking for slights real or imagined.

        Comment


        • #64
          Sorry, here is the link:
          http://www.scouter.com/forum/issues-...tians-jews-etc

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          • #65
            Thanks!

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            • #66
              I've temporarily changed my religion to Futbol.

              I have a different take on the Jewish scouts that mumbled through the "prayer." I have a couple of Jewish kids in my troop and they are bright, and well educated in their faith. They would do the same thing. It would be great if one of them started with the Shima in Hebrew but they're young and peer pressure is a big thing. The real issue, as in a lot of these types of things, are people with authority making assumptions. I watch out for these kids so it won't happen to them. Not every scout gets that support.

              I absolutely agree with encouraging scouts to learn more about their own faith. But what about the kids that aren't exposed to much more than the two days a year they have to go to church/temple? The Jewish kids mentioned are no different than a lot of Christian kids. I'm not sure prayers of any style will encourage them to do anything. As in most things scouting, I can see the adults really messing this up by saying this is the way you do it. Maybe scouting has more powerful ways to get through to kids. A service project where the boys see the result, helping another scout that has Asperger's, an awesome view, just talking about these things and getting an honest answer from an impartial friend. I don't know. My scouts listen to me a lot more when they know I'm not telling them what to do. I think it all gets back to a scoutmaster with a light touch that knows his scouts.

              Comment


              • #67
                I think next time I'm asked what could be done to include my unit in Scouts Own, I'm going to tell them that it starts with a Bris... Pretty sure that that's the last I'll hear of it.

                Comment


                • #68
                  When you offer that suggestion, get it on video...I'd like to see the reaction, lol. But my reaction would be, "been there, done that".
                  Futbol, huh? The idea that you can't use hands to move the ball is almost as weird as American football. But I 'get' the 'religion' part. Where I am right now the 'religion' is cricket. The locals watch it with such passion and even after all these years I'm still clueless.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Pack18Alex View Post
                    I think next time I'm asked what could be done to include my unit in Scouts Own, I'm going to tell them that it starts with a Bris... Pretty sure that that's the last I'll hear of it.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by MattR View Post
                      I have a different take on the Jewish scouts that mumbled through the "prayer." I have a couple of Jewish kids in my troop and they are bright, and well educated in their faith. They would do the same thing. It would be great if one of them started with the Shima in Hebrew but they're young and peer pressure is a big thing. The real issue, as in a lot of these types of things, are people with authority making assumptions. I watch out for these kids so it won't happen to them. Not every scout gets that support.
                      I don't disagree with any of this. It's part of why we're trying to grow Jewish Units in our Council, so that Jewish Scouts have an opportunity to learn reverence within their own faith.

                      I guess I disagree with the idea that they can be "well educated in their faith" and would "do the same thing."

                      While one could certainly make an argument that a Jew offering a Protestant style prayer is doing so to the God of Israel, and therefore NOT a Christian prayer, it's certainly not ideal. It might NOT rise to the level of Idolatry/Blasphemy/Avodah Zara, but it's certainly moving in that direction. It depends how seriously you take Jewish law. I'm personally Shomer Shabbat/Shomer Kashrut, and take Halacha quite seriously (the last conversation asking about Jews and other minority faiths was launched on a Friday evening and more or less died out by the time Shabbat was over - an example of how big the divide can be amongst well intentioned Scouters).

                      So, while the classical Reform Positioning (19th Century German version, not 20th Century American version) would be completely okay with this, Orthodox and Conservative Rabbis would likely consider this seriously problematic.

                      When prayer was removed from school, Jewish pupils felt less like outsiders, and it paved the way for Catholics to join public schools. OTOH, that "outsiderness" of Judaism has been a core marker of Jewish peoplehood from the Babylonian Exile until the Enlightenment era. If Scouting is going to encourage Jewish Scouts to grow in their Judaism, I'm not sure that "blurring the lines" between Protestant Christianity and Judaism is the way to do it. I think it's accidental backdoor prostelyzing.

                      Originally posted by MattR View Post
                      I absolutely agree with encouraging scouts to learn more about their own faith. But what about the kids that aren't exposed to much more than the two days a year they have to go to church/temple? The Jewish kids mentioned are no different than a lot of Christian kids. I'm not sure prayers of any style will encourage them to do anything. As in most things scouting, I can see the adults really messing this up by saying this is the way you do it. Maybe scouting has more powerful ways to get through to kids. A service project where the boys see the result, helping another scout that has Asperger's, an awesome view, just talking about these things and getting an honest answer from an impartial friend. I don't know. My scouts listen to me a lot more when they know I'm not telling them what to do. I think it all gets back to a scoutmaster with a light touch that knows his scouts.
                      I don't have an answer for you. But we have lots of unaffiliated Jews that joined our Pack in the past year. They go to Temple 2x/year, but want their kids to be more exposed to Jewish friends and more Judaism. We don't preach, we're not a minister. But they will see our leaders with a Tallit on praying sincerely at our Campsite, then leading the boys off to the archery range. They are sitting down for two formal Shabbat meals at a Campout, hearing Havdalah on Saturday night. They are using separate mess kits for meat and dairy. I'm not sure if we're leading them to be more serious in their religion, but they are certainly exposed to it more.

                      At every campout, without fail, a Jewish Scout is walking by our Campsite and hears Jewish prayers and joins us for Kiddush. They see boys with Kippot on at campsites. They see boys with uncovered heads tossing the football with kippa wearing Orthodox Jews. I'm not entirely sure what we're doing, but it all seems positive to me.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Scouter99 View Post
                        I assure you all that no aggression or defense was intended in agreeing with my Jewish pal, if in more vivid language. I'm more than happy to adhere to the rules you're referring to if you'll favor me with a hyperlink, I don't see any threads started by MattR within the first 5 pages of this forum.

                        If there's one thing for pre-modern times, its cosmopolitanism. Post-nationalism, there can't be any real coexistence. National identities and systems depend on creating identities that fit the biggest group, which creates minorities that must either leave or be given tolerance, which isn't acceptance. Without national identities there are no minorities to be mistreated based simply on identity or considerations to give them, no constant looking for slights real or imagined.
                        I for one took no offense to Scouter99, and I apologize if those thought it was intended as offense. I think with the exception of one or two active members of this forum, everyone here takes BSA and our mission seriously. So are there disagreements with what that means? Absolutely. Is "Reverence" and "Duty to God" complicated in a multi-religious organization? Absolutely. But I for one think it's worth hashing out in forums like this one.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Pack18Alex View Post
                          a Jew offering a Protestant style prayer
                          What are the defining characteristics of a Protestant-style prayer? As a Catholic I like fixed prayers so to me, a Protestant-style prayer is one that is ad-hoc, made up on the spur of the moment, etc. I'm wondering how a Jewish person distinguishes Protestant-style prayers from Jewish.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Try this for starters...
                            There are six different blessings, each beginnning with the same six words . . .

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Peregrinator, probably the same way you do (they're all fixed). At least in my temple there's a mix of English and Hebrew. We sing most of the Hebrew prayers. Considering I wouldn't come within a mile of a karaoke bar, I really like the singing. It gets me in the mood, so to say.

                              What do Catholics think of ad-hoc style prayers at scout functions?

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Peregrinator View Post

                                What are the defining characteristics of a Protestant-style prayer? As a Catholic I like fixed prayers so to me, a Protestant-style prayer is one that is ad-hoc, made up on the spur of the moment, etc. I'm wondering how a Jewish person distinguishes Protestant-style prayers from Jewish.
                                I wonder if the Christians ever thought about how Jesus prayed considering he was Jewish and not Christian???.... ???? And yes, I'm anti-sectarian and it shows.

                                Stosh

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