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This should have been dealt with at the same time as youth membership.

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  • It would be nice if that PM thing was working....Eagledad, I'll try to help you out. This might not be what you remember but the one that I can remember which comes closest was one in which I announced my pleasure at having relieved the students of some illusions...after which Beavah quickly pounced by denouncing bullying in the classroom or something along those lines, lol.

    I just let that go because if he had been there he would have understood how wrong he was. The illusions were about energy independence in one course and STD myths in another. I take great pleasure in helping students to determine for themselves how wrong some of these ideas are. Beavah, on the other hand....well..sometimes I just allow the illusions to continue. No great harm there.

    The best one ever is when I surprise them by changing a really dirty, nasty baby diaper right in front of the class, lol. I am thinking that I can do more to make them think carefully about birth control than a host of preachers. Diabolical!!!
    Incidentally that lecture is about how to decide, on the basis of energy, whether to use disposables or reusable diapers. I might put that one online someday.

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    • Sentinel, they could use a little salt. Same thing for matzos. I guess it depends on the nature of the 'hunger'.

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      • Originally posted by Torchwood View Post
        Okay, Perigrinator- I call BS. What temptation? Do you actually know any openly gay people?
        Yes.

        Do you equate being gay with being automatically attracted to all male human beings?
        No, but I assume they suffer from the same sort of temptations as other men. For example, a man might well struggle with temptations if he works in an environment where many of his co-workers are attractive women.

        Do you equate being gay with being a child molester, or a criminal that cannot pass a CORI or other background investigation?
        No.

        By your argument, why are women allowed to be Scout leaders? Aren't they a temptation to all the men who are also Scout leaders?
        I have no idea why women are allowed to be scout leaders, and yes, they may be such a temptation.

        How about making the assumption that mature adults, of whatever orientation and gender, have the ability to keep it in their pants when they are in the company of Scouts.
        Who said anything about taking stuff out of one's pants? The Sixth Commandment is about more than sexual activity.

        Or realizing that child molesters, by and large don't self identify as homosexual- Google it, there is plenty of research readily available. At the end of the day, bigotry of any form has far less place in Scouting than openly gay Scout leaders.
        But I didn't mention child molesters and whether or not they identify as homosexual.

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        • Originally posted by AZMike View Post
          There actually is a pretty wide acceptance of what is termed "cross-generational" sexual behavior in the gay community (although the term "pedophilia" is not used, although pederasty may be. Even gay icon Harvey Milk had an underage lover, and I don't see anyone in the gay community condemning him for it.
          Right, we should distinguish between pedophilia, which is probably what most people think when they think of child molestation and which pertains to people attracted to pre-pubescent children who have no secondary sexual characteristics, and ephebophilia which pertains to people attracted to adolescents.

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          • Originally posted by Peregrinator View Post

            Right, we should distinguish between pedophilia, which is probably what most people think when they think of child molestation and which pertains to people attracted to pre-pubescent children who have no secondary sexual characteristics, and ephebophilia which pertains to people attracted to adolescents.
            Ephebophilia is a term that has grown in popularity in America alongside two things: 1. the post-Stonewall separation of the gay lobby from its boy-loving Victorian vanguard, and 2. the ever-lengthening adolescence of our young people. Fretting mothers need their 17-yr-olds to still be children in the literal sense, homosexual advocates need separation from their Uranian roots so they can say "these men aren't gay, they're something else." A disorder is born.
            Ephebophilia is not a thing as far as the APA is concerned.
            In general, people reach sexual maturity as early as 13 (increasingly more earlier, some later). Pedophiles are attracted to pre-pubescent people, heterosexuals/homosexuals are attracted to sexually mature people. The rest is social/political/legal construct. Proclivity toward certain traits doesn't get its own name: Would you call a person attracted only to black people a negrophile? Only to blondes a rubiophile? No, at best you'd call them fetishists. Ephebophilia gets its growing acceptance because it suits our contemporary thinking on sex: we've decided that young people should only be able to make relationship decisions if it's with another young person within very close range of their own age (my state legislates 3 yrs), and we don't want anyone over 18 engaging in relationships with people under 18, those that do must be sick or criminals or better yet, both (and here we see echoes of the illegality of homosexual sex).

            A man who is attracted to a 14-yr-old is simply a homosexual. The same gay man would be repulsed at the idea of a relationship with a 12-yr-old precisely because he's not a pedophile. That gay man might be 18, 20, 35, or what-have-you. Make the 18-yr-old 17 and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Make the 14-yr-old 17 and we wouldn't having this conversation. It's all construct.

            The Boy Scouts and Venturing programs serve 10- to 21-yr-olds; the vast majority of Boy Scouts are not pre-pubescent, and 100% of healthy Venturers are sexually mature. These aren't concerns over pedophilia, they're concerns over homosexuality.

            Gay men get particular scrutiny because from the late 1800s through the 1970s, gay activists focused their efforts on access to young men ("boys" in the now-archaic Victorian sense of the word). These gay men did not organize in a contemporary political way, rather, they worked through art, literature, and social movements. Post-Stonewall, modern political organization happened, and as savvy lobbyists these new activists shut out gay men who are attracted to young men. Applying the contemporary understanding of gay and pedophile to the biggest names of yesteryear gay activists or celebrities makes almost all of them pedophiles (or ephebophiles if you will) and that leaves gay activists and their confederates to constantly argue that gays aren't pedophiles. Correct, it's just that large swaths of them happen to be obsessed with young men.
            Last edited by Scouter99; 04-07-2014, 03:08 PM.

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            • Our entire culture is obsessed with youth, being young, staying young, looking younger, etc. Our society is pretty much hosed at this point. I have always seen Scouting as the last best attempt at instilling self confidence and leadership skills in the next generation. You know, the people who will eventually decide which nursing home we go to... My earlier questions to Peregrinator were just trying to find out what temptation he was specifically talking about (and thank you for responding- I hope you don't take it as a personal attack. I merely want to understand the opposing viewpoint). That being said, I still don't understand why there is this sense that being gay makes one less able to control any particular urges. I didn't think that being a mature adult was reserved for heterosexuals only. Gay isn't a group that you are recruited into, nor is it something that you are converted to or from like a religious sect. I am not here to change anyone's mind- to think I could would be folly. I guess the local option may be the best way for the National Council to backpedal and save a little face here. But they will only do it because they are being hit in the pocketbook, and not because it is the fair and right thing to do. It still isn't optimal in my view. But I am going to stop posting on this subject. Banging your head against the wall only feels better when you stop. I am deeply saddened that some of the adult leaders of an organization built on such lofty ideals can be so easily swayed towards something so base. Just the opinion of a very liberal Jewish kid from Boston.

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              • Someone should refresh their memory regarding flag presentation as well as confronting his politicization of the unit. Flag is backward in the photo with the rainbow flag.

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                • Originally posted by skeptic View Post
                  Someone should refresh their memory regarding flag presentation as well as confronting his politicization of the unit. Flag is backward in the photo with the rainbow flag.
                  This is the same guy who led scouts in the Salt Lake City gay pride parade last summer, getting national headlines and rebukes from BSA. He is also the founder of Old Scout's Promise, an organization that lobbies for homosexual inclusion: http://oldscoutspromise.blogspot.com/ where he refers to national staffers/volunteers who are against inclusion as "freaks" and threatens to give anyone who disagrees with him their "15 minutes of fame"

                  Is that enough for you, yet, Sentinel?

                  His entire raison d'être is the politicization of Scouting.
                  Last edited by Scouter99; 04-07-2014, 05:55 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by Torchwood View Post
                    That being said, I still don't understand why there is this sense that being gay makes one less able to control any particular urges.
                    I don't think I suggested that a gay man would be any less able to control his temptations. But I think a gay scout leader would be subject to the same degree of temptation as a heterosexual man in the midst of a troop of young women.

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                    • Point taken. Let me rephrase then. We as mature and responsible adults, of whatever stripe, should be able to do the right thing in the situations that we place ourselves in.

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                      • Originally posted by Scouter99 View Post

                        Is that enough for you, yet, Sentinel?

                        His entire raison d'être is the politicization of Scouting.
                        Yep. Thats good enough for me. Children should never be pawns in political games between adults.

                        TO ALL IN THIS THREAD: I believe this thread is dropping posts. Please quote posts you are replying to in order to avoid confusion.

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                        • Originally posted by Sentinel947 View Post

                          Yep. Thats good enough for me. Children should never be pawns in political games between adults.

                          TO ALL IN THIS THREAD: I believe this thread is dropping posts. Please quote posts you are replying to in order to avoid confusion.
                          If you didn't delete your post that I was referencing, then the thread is definitely dropping posts. I agreed with your position that one article isn't necessarily enough to show that McGrath and this church created a troop specifically in order to create this incident. So, I Googled and this rabbit hole is deep. McGrath has been working with Scouts for Equality for a year and founded his own protest organization, the church performs gay marriages against UMC doctrine and wanted to found an "inclusive troop" in defiance of BSA policy.

                          McGrath found his activist CO, the CO found their activist SM, they're using "impoverished underserved kids" as pawns. Ironically, his last post on Scout's Old Promise castigates our own RichardB for using the phrase "gay agenda." That's all it is. The poor kids of Rainier Beach are nothing to McGrath except his very own USS Maine.
                          Last edited by Scouter99; 04-07-2014, 06:44 PM.

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                          • I did not delete any posts. I noticed a post I replied to of Eagledads disappeared and I didn't quote it. This lead to some confusion.

                            I believe the ban on gay leaders should be discontinued, but involving children into it is not ethical. Orchestrating incidents like this on purpose is not going to further the cause.

                            Reading his blog, man he is filled with anger. Uses very hot rhetoric. Too hot for me.
                            Last edited by Sentinel947; 04-07-2014, 06:52 PM.

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                            • Originally posted by Sentinel947 View Post
                              I did not delete any posts. I noticed a post I replied to of Eagledads disappeared and I didn't quote it. This lead to some confusion.

                              I believe the ban on gay leaders should be discontinued, but involving children into it is not ethical. Orchestrating incidents like this on purpose is not going to further the cause.

                              Reading his blog, man he is filled with anger. Uses very hot rhetoric. Too hot for me.
                              And with the help of activist media, it's all under the rug.

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                              • I had a feeling this was a set up. It's unfortunate that these people use the Scouts to further their goal. This doesn't help their cause, it only causes less sympathy.
                                Regarding Eagledad, Huzzer, and Peregrinator, I found your arguments very very enlightening.However, I won't dignifies them with any further responses.

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