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This should have been dealt with at the same time as youth membership.

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  • I think he is getting exactly that respect. Pack. I'm not sure where you are saying. I do remember you telling a story a few years ago of how you proudly like put your students in their place when they spoke of things they didn't understand (politics was the subject at the time). So I think you can agree that the discussion has not gone that direction. Barry

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    • Produce a quote that you think supports your assertion and I will respond to it. I doubt that you can.
      When I challenge students, it is not dismissive on the basis of their youth and inexperience. Rather I employ tools such as reductio ad absurdum or Socratic ignorance for the purpose of instruction rather than dismissal.
      For now, I'll let your own words stand for others to assess.
      I still maintain that we should welcome his view as a rare chance to 'hear' the perspective of one of those young persons. If you think I am wrong about this, you are welcome to explain my error. You haven't.

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      • Eagledad. I can understand you do not believe gay people to be good role models. Troops currently can deny volunteers for a whole host of reasons, but only gays and atheists are not allowed to join units even if the unit wants them to. Why? What about a openly gay who is not married and celibate? Being Catholic I know a few who carry the cross of their attractions. They are excellent witnesses to the Church and her teachings, but could not become leaders unless they keep in the closet. Why?
        Last edited by Sentinel947; 04-07-2014, 10:56 AM. Reason: Edited because I was seeing things.

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        • April 6, an update:
          http://www.king5.com/news/cities/sea...254122521.html

          Geoffrey McGrath remains Scoutmaster. The Charter Organization, Rainier Beach United Methodist Church, stands with him.

          "I have not tended my resignation," said McGrath. "Until I am relieved of my duty properly, I stand in my post."

          It's a post supported by Pastor Monica Corsaro who leads the host church for McGrath's charter application.

          "It's very disappointing that a policy that is so blatantly discriminatory is being acted out, and so I think it makes us stand more firm and be more clear that Geoffrey is our Scoutmaster and Geoffrey will remain our Scoutmaster," said Corsaro, who also said the Boy Scouts of America have yet to contact her directly.
          Last edited by RememberSchiff; 04-07-2014, 06:48 AM.

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          • What about a openly gay who is not married and celibate? Being Catholic I know a few who carry the cross of their attractions. They are excellent witnesses to the Church and her teachings, but could not become leaders unless they keep in the closet. Why?

            Because it would be a temptation for them.

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            • Originally posted by Peregrinator View Post
              [I] Because it would be a temptation for them.
              I'm afraid I don't understand what their temptation would be towards? The Scouts? A troop leader?

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              • Sentinel, I'm guessing it has to be temptation towards the wine because those wafers are just so wretched tasting.

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                • >>Produce a quote that you think supports your assertion and I will respond to it. I doubt that you can.<<

                  LOL, Pack there is a price to pay for being the smartest guy in the room on a public forum. How many thousands of post have we sent to this forum. All of us long-timers have a history and reputation. Your post on the subject was several years ago, but it was memorable, at least to me.

                  >>I still maintain that we should welcome his view as a rare chance to 'hear' the perspective of one of those young persons.<<

                  Then those of us who work with these young people agree. We also have a responsibility to keep the discussion fair by holding each other accountable for a civil discourse. We are never too old or too young to continue developing the social skills of respect by being a servant to the participants.

                  >>Eagledad. I can understand you do not believe gay people to be good role models. Comparing them to leaders who cannot pass a background check is implying that open homosexuals are criminals. Surely that's not what you meant.<<

                  Sentinel, I don’t think you will find my opinion of gay leaders in that post because it was presented in a pragmatic neutral perspective. And I must admit I am scratching my head with your giant leap of me putting gays in the context of criminal investigations, I can’t even imagine how you got there when the topic in that particular post between NextGen and I was about adult influence. Gays wasn’t even mentioned.

                  These few posts show the struggle of carrying a civil exchange of thoughts on the subject of homosexual Leaders because it triggers some many people’s emotions. But we can only understand each other when we learn how discuss without trying to manipulate the direction of the tone with condescending self-righteous tone. If you can’t respect a forum member because you don’t like their opinion, then don’t even enter the subject. It’s not worth losing your social integrity for simply having a different opinion. The truth is most of us are pretty set in our opinions by now, so what’s the point of hurting relationships? Obviously some struggle to control their emotions and end up getting trapped in a corner by their pride. But there are no prizes being handed out because there no winners or losers. There is no reason for putting ourselves in that position simply because we believe differently.

                  Barry

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                  • Okay, Perigrinator- I call BS. What temptation? Do you actually know any openly gay people? Do you equate being gay with being automatically attracted to all male human beings? Do you equate being gay with being a child molester, or a criminal that cannot pass a CORI or other background investigation? By your argument, why are women allowed to be Scout leaders? Aren't they a temptation to all the men who are also Scout leaders? How about making the assumption that mature adults, of whatever orientation and gender, have the ability to keep it in their pants when they are in the company of Scouts. Or realizing that child molesters, by and large don't self identify as homosexual- Google it, there is plenty of research readily available. At the end of the day, bigotry of any form has far less place in Scouting than openly gay Scout leaders.

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                    • Eagledad: I should have quoted the post I was replying to. I can no longer find it in the thread. I will amend my post to reflect that. I believe your opinion is valid. Please read my posts in the spirit they are written. When I make a comment directed at an individual, I'm attempting to understand their views. I'm challenging their views in order to make connections. I understand nobody in this debate is going to change their mind.
                      Last edited by Sentinel947; 04-07-2014, 11:50 AM.

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                      • How this plays out will be very interesting. CO stands by SM, so National revokes charter or refuses recharter ? What other options do they have ? I don't think this one is going to end well.

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                        • Originally posted by Torchwood View Post
                          ... Or realizing that child molesters, by and large don't self identify as homosexual- Google it, there is plenty of research readily available.
                          Well, I did as you suggested and found that your statement is not true. The first Google reference I found is to an article in the academic journal "Archives of Sexual Behavior" which is hardly a biased source. (The cite is W.D. Erickson et al., BehaviorPatterns of Child Molesters, 17 ARCHIVES SEXUAL BEHAV. 77, 83 (1988).) In that study, 86% of the pedophiles surveyed described themselves as either "gay" or "bisexual."

                          There actually is a pretty wide acceptance of what is termed "cross-generational" sexual behavior in the gay community (although the term "pedophilia" is not used, although pederasty may be. Even gay icon Harvey Milk had an underage lover, and I don't see anyone in the gay community condemning him for it.

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                          • Originally posted by King Ding Dong View Post
                            How this plays out will be very interesting. CO stands by SM, so National revokes charter or refuses recharter ? What other options do they have ? I don't think this one is going to end well.
                            The council dynamic will also get sticky fast due to things require SM approval. The SM is not a member of the BSA regardless of the church's activist dreams--his signature is not valid on anything, and the troop has no SM.

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                            • Big surprise: McGrath flies a gay pride flag on troop outings and took his troop to march in the the gay pride parade. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...anks-year.html

                              The entire reason that this church started the troop was to protest BSA's policies, advocate for gay rights, call the news, and make a stink. BSA is an organization for youth, not a political soap box. Revoke the church's charter.
                              Last edited by Scouter99; 04-07-2014, 11:35 AM.

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                              • Originally posted by packsaddle View Post
                                Sentinel, I'm guessing it has to be temptation towards the wine because those wafers are just so wretched tasting.
                                I like how they taste actually... Both temporally and spiritually. =P
                                Last edited by Sentinel947; 04-07-2014, 11:52 AM.

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