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This should have been dealt with at the same time as youth membership.

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  • #31
    Merlyn, I keep hoping at some point maybe you might see how you cannot have it both ways; you know live and let live. But, that is not likely to happen.

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    • #32
      Merlyn, I keep hoping at some point maybe you might see how you cannot have it both ways; you know live and let live. But, that is not likely to happen.

      What are you babbling about now? If a company says it won't discriminate on the basis of religion, people ought to call them out on it if they don't follow their own stated policies.

      Your idea of "live and let live" always seems to have atheists end up in the back of the bus, if they're even permitted that much.

      PS: what do I want "both ways"?

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      • #33
        Merlyn for all honesty atheist won't get as much attention as the gay issue. Here should be the BSA comment on atheism. Atheism is a choice while being homosexual isn't, and you can just not discuses that you are an atheist. Many companies sighted the gay policy as the reason for withdrawing funds.

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        • #34
          "Atheism is a choice while being homosexual isn't"

          Well, I disagree with that statement, but in any case, most companies DO have policies prohibiting religious discrimination. I haven't seen one yet that includes sexual orientation but not religion/creed.

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          • #35
            Locally the hanging issue is still hurting us with our CO. We get grumpy comments from the younger liberal members about the adults and grumbles about the policy with the youth from the older ones.

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            • #36
              No, it is about not being discriminated against on the basis of something that is NOT A CHOICE for them.

              Why can something that is "not a choice" not be a basis for discrimination?

              McGrath said starting the unit was not a publicity stunt but a bid to serve youth and rejoin the contentious discussion around gay and lesbian adult membership.

              Seems to me that "rejoining the contentious discussion" is inimical to serving youth. If one wants to serve youth through organization X, then the best way to do that is by following X's policies, rather than deciding not to follow them from jump and putting one's own program at risk.

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              • #37
                [QUOTE=Why can something that is "not a choice" not be a basis for discrimination?.[/QUOTE]

                Is it okay to discriminate against someone on the basis of their skin color? That isn't a choice either.

                I don't necessarily agree that this guy isn't anything other than an activist, as opposed to a gay parent who simply wants to be involved in his son's Scouting experience. That being said, the program needs to change from within, not just because of external pressures to do the right thing. Local control of this issue isn't going to solve anything at this point. That would have had to happen at the outset- before things got noisy.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Torchwood View Post
                  My belief system is one of acceptance- that there is room at the table for all walks of life, and that none of us are above any other.
                  Fine, then accept that many parents have reservations about sending their children into the woods in the care of a man whose personal example is not what they want their children to emulate.

                  If those parents bother you, sit at another table; and accept their beliefs.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Torchwood View Post
                    Is it okay to discriminate against someone on the basis of their skin color? That isn't a choice either.
                    The fact that one should not discriminate based on one thing that is not a choice does not at all imply that there don't exist other things that are not a choice that cannot be the basis for discrimination. That is, it does not follow from "discrimination based on race=bad" that "discrimination based on sexual orientation/preference=bad." Mental illness, for example, is also not a choice. But I don't think you want to argue that we can't discriminate against the mentally ill when it comes to leadership positions in scouting. Or maybe you do want to argue just that.

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                    • #40
                      Torchwood ... "before things got noisy" ... Ever since BSA was created, it's been the charter organizations responsibility to choose the leaders for the charter organization units. Unless you are going to force your beliefs into the Mormon, Catholic, Lutheran, Muslim, Jewish and many other religions set of beliefs, the only other option is to end scouting. Most groups are sponsored by a faith based organization.

                      Once we have the "local option", you can make more change from inside by creating your own scouting unit sponsored by the fire department or the city library.

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                      • #41
                        Local option is all well and good until you get to district, council and national events. Then we are all under national rules.

                        Right now you can have your gay leader as long as he keeps his trap shut.

                        If the rule for gay adults is changed then all district, council and national events become gay adult friendly. That's the hard fact that national has to deal with. Will making those events gay friendly cause a massive reduction in membership.

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                        • #42
                          If the rule for gay adults is changed then all district, council and national events become gay adult friendly.

                          This is true now for international scouting events (and adds atheists and girls, too).

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by nextgenscouter1 View Post
                            What the BSA needs to do is allow gay leaders. For the most part the people pushing this are activists and extremists they aren't going to go and get involved in scouting. For them this is all political, so we should just agree with them, allow gay leaders, and the issue is over with. Then get all the companies that cut funding to BSA to start giving money again. Nothing else will ever gain the same press that the gay issue does.
                            I agree we need to have gay leaders, but that choice should be up to the CO.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Merlyn_LeRoy View Post
                              If the rule for gay adults is changed then all district, council and national events become gay adult friendly.

                              This is true now for international scouting events (and adds atheists and girls, too).
                              Correct. World Jambo in 2007 also had a beer tent for adult staff. BSA members had to follow USA national policies so no beer, no girls (except female Venturers on staff) and no gays.
                              Last edited by Huzzar; 04-02-2014, 12:40 PM. Reason: spelling

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Huzzar View Post

                                Correct. World Jambo in 2007 also had a beer tent for adult staff. BSA members had to follow USA national policies so no beer, no girls (except female Venturers on staff) and no gays.
                                To the tune of In Heaven there is No Beer ...

                                Our country wont spare us beer,
                                Thus we cannot drink yours here.
                                And our troops cannot have no girls,
                                So, our contingents are now all crews.

                                And the godless, we've eschewed,
                                But, pray, do not be so rude,
                                Because, at least there's more drink for you,
                                And we'll be gay 'till we're 22.

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