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This should have been dealt with at the same time as youth membership.

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  • I think that if the premise of the COR being part of every local council executive board was actually followed, we would see the local option. It is highly likely that a majority of units are church based, as pointed out, if all of their COR's actually voted in every council, then the control WOULD be local. I have seen a couple of instances personally, and there are likely others, where somehow an issue became important enough to get the COR's to show en-mass to the exec board and take over the direction of the council. But, the COR is not encouraged really to participate; half the time they do not even know they have a vote.

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    • Originally posted by Pack18Alex View Post
      The idea of creating a second-class scouter: can be a unit scouter, cannot be a district/council scouter, will just prolong the pain of discussing this, so if BSA national elects a "local" option, if council isn't non-discriminatory, it doesn't solve ANYTHING.
      All the proposals for local control I have seen consist of the BSA stopping its discrimination at all levels from national to district, and leaving the choice to the COs. You are correct, if it isn't done that way, then it wouldn't solve anything.

      Originally posted by Pack18Alex View Post
      If donating to the highly popular Prop 8 in California is grounds for termination half a decade later, I think that conservative Christian BSA leaders have every reason to believe that this will be "taken away from them" as well. I think that that is a concern that stems from forgetting that this is "all about the boys" but reasonable for people for whom being a scouter is a 15+ year hobby.
      Again, this is part of the problem. The conservatives believe they "own" the BSA, and it's being taken from them. The reality is they tried to take it away from everyone else. They took what was primarily a patriotic youth organization and tried to convert it into a conservative religious one. Now we are taking it back. So yes, they are loosing it.

      Originally posted by Pack18Alex View Post
      Unfortuantely for those valuing inclusion, the continued harassment by GLAAD and friends after the recent BSA decision will have everyone gun-shy. BSA has not regained ANY financial supporters, and has lost more by having this in the news, there is no reason to believe that this makes anyone more likely to support more changes.
      The reason the BSA has not regained any financial supporters is because they didn't go far enough. Things will not change until the BSA chooses to stop discriminating. Then all those big (and small) donors that have non-discrimination policies will be free to donate. Local control would fix that. I hope you are wrong about the BSA being gun-shy. The only way to fix this (in my opinion) is to go for local control (on both Gs). Until then we will have the worst of both worlds.

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      • Pack, thanks for the laugh. I hope I made your day, too!

        Peridochas, yes, I even took woodbadge, hoping it might teach me more about how to motivate boys. It's all a nice introduction to boy scouts but doesn't go beyond the very basics. SM training does not teach leadership, respect, age specific needs of scouts, 300', failure, or a truck load of other things I have figured out over the years. If national would work on this it would help units a lot more than JTE. Honestly, the council is always mailing me stuff that should be sent to the CC. They don't even know how a troop is organized. But this has nothing to do with my underlying problem. I have adults that I'm teaching this all too but they also have to do a lot of other work for the troop because too many parents are just not responsible. They don't see the promise of scouts and maybe if they did they'd help out more. Can't national at least give me a video I can show new parents to train them as to how the program works, its benefits, and what they need to do to help that process? In other words, it would be better to help units locally be better than try to win one side of the culture war that nobody can win.

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        • What you call taking back, they see as losing. People are very loss averse. I'm not saying their right, I'm saying that they will fight tooth and nail to protect. Personally, I like the religious affiliated scouting program, but others like the secular program as well. It all works.

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          • Originally posted by Pack18Alex View Post
            What you call taking back, they see as losing. People are very loss averse. I'm not saying their right, I'm saying that they will fight tooth and nail to protect. Personally, I like the religious affiliated scouting program, but others like the secular program as well. It all works.
            I agree with you, they are fighting it hard. The problem is that they don't like my faith's version of the religious affiliated scouting program (won't condemn gays? Then we don't recognize that religious award anymore - so take it off that uniform!). They want it all for themselves and the rest can pound sand. Anything that prevents them from dictating to everyone else, they see as an attack on them. Not very scout like in my opinion.

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            • These headlines are not going to stop.
              Two twin brothers are on the precipice of legally becoming adults -- and they are about to receive radically different treatment from an organization they both know and love. Liam and August Easton-Calabria are seniors in high school and have been...

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              • Originally posted by AZMike View Post

                Some things are just wrong, like marijuana use. We recently had a man in one of our state parks arrested for coprophilia. Now, just having that paraphilia is not illegal, any more than homosexuality is. You don't break any laws if you practice it. There are no rules against it in the BSA by-laws (presuming the coprophile has never been arrested.) If he is open about his sexual identity, writes a blog about his interest, conducts his sex-life with consenting adults...I would still say he shouldn't be a scout leader, any more than a pothead or an openly homosexual man should be.

                Even if pot smoking becomes legal and the new normal, it should not be condoned or encouraged in Scouting.
                Why on earth would it be encouraged in Scouting? How are you jumping to the conclusion that "legal" equals "encouraged"? Alcohol is legal, and obviously no one is encouraging kids to drink (I hope not at least), despite the fact that countless adult scouters use alcohol, hopefully in moderation and when appropriate. Obviously not during scout functions.

                The same should apply to everything else. If a SM is following the local law and smokes pot at home, you can't say he's unfit for the job. It's a slippery slope if you do. You can't condemn the pot user and turn a blind eye to the alcohol user.

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                • Originally posted by EmberMike View Post

                  Why on earth would it be encouraged in Scouting? How are you jumping to the conclusion that "legal" equals "encouraged"? Alcohol is legal, and obviously no one is encouraging kids to drink (I hope not at least), despite the fact that countless adult scouters use alcohol, hopefully in moderation and when appropriate. Obviously not during scout functions.

                  The same should apply to everything else. If a SM is following the local law and smokes pot at home, you can't say he's unfit for the job. It's a slippery slope if you do. You can't condemn the pot user and turn a blind eye to the alcohol user.
                  ​Sure I can, and the kind of moral relativism that says there is an equivalence between smoking marijuana and alcohol is inane. Slippery slopes are everywhere, Mike. We just figure out how to negotiate them.

                  As I said, there are many behaviors that are legal that we don't allow in youth leaders. An openly transvestite male, the paraphilia I cited earlier, or any number of behaviors that are wrong and inappropriate for youth leaders.

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                  • Originally posted by AZMike View Post
                    ​Sure I can, and the kind of moral relativism that says there is an equivalence between smoking marijuana and alcohol is inane.
                    Exactly. Deaths due to alcohol worldwide are about 2,500,000 each year, while a recent German study may have found 2 deaths due to marijuana last year. Comparing the two is ridiculous.

                    PS: I don't think there is much data on smoking alcohol.

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                    • I wonder how many Germans died do to alcohol? I wonder how a death is attributed to alcohol? If marijuana was the start of a drug problem which leads to a cocaine overdose, does that static go under the marijuana column?

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                      • If we are going on the alcohol vs weed tangent, lets through in the new Palcohol into the mix. Dang liberals trying to take away our Freedom.
                        New York Democratic Sen. Chuck Schumer wants to be the buzzkill and prevent powdered alcohol from hitting store shelves, warning it could become “the Kool-Aid of teenage binge drinking.

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                        • Originally posted by Eagledad View Post
                          I wonder how many Germans died do to alcohol? I wonder how a death is attributed to alcohol? If marijuana was the start of a drug problem which leads to a cocaine overdose, does that static go under the marijuana column?
                          except there is no actual real evidence that Marijauna is a gateway drug. Scientifically it is proven safer than alcohol, and I believe with in the next few years will be legal in all 50 states. it wasn't just "liberals" that voted to legalize it here in Washington. many of us conservatives did also.

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                          • I don't know where this should be classified, but I guess it's not deaths.

                            http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...05-06-06-44-51

                            ""Firefighters in the state have raced to at least 31 butane hash oil explosions this year, compared with 11 last year, according to the Rocky Mountain High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area, an agency that has only recently started tallying cases.""

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                            • Oooo, look at this. It seems we have caught up to Germans.

                              http://www.cbsnews.com/news/marijuan...-after-deaths/

                              ""Colorado is re-thinking the rules for pot-infused food after two recent deaths.""

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                              • Only 2,499,998 to go to catch up to alcohol.

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