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Facts About Atheists according to Pew

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  • Facts About Atheists according to Pew

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...bout-atheists/

  • #2
    Interesting stats. Sounds to me like people are defining spiritual beliefs differently today. Many of those might be considered agnostics, but I guess the point is whether the Religious Declaration of the BSA is still relevant to the way people think. One of the reasons that AA has survived as long as it has is that it allows people to believe in God "as we understand Him." It allows people who are willing to admit the probability of a supreme being to belong. Perhaps that would work in Scouting. Although I'm Buddhist and my personal view of a supreme being has long been very different than the Judeo-Christian one, I've never had a problem saying the Scout Oath and Law with conviction. When I was a Scoutmaster, I sometimes met with boys who said they didn't believe in God, but if I asked probing questions, they generally said they agreed there was some higher power in the universe.

    Comment


    • #3
      Ever since the beginning of time, humanity has been struggling with the issue of religion and how it should be expressed. When I use the term religion, it is not meant in the normal sense of Christian/Buddhist/Islam/Judean, etc., but as a belief system by which people operate. There are those that believe there is a God and others say they believe he doesn't exist. Most people fluctuate and are unsure because of the nature of the issue, thus they fall into the grey area between. Even the most ardent Christian will feel, usually in a stressful situation, there is no God out there... A few days later he feels close to God once more. It all depends a lot on what day the survey is taken. But generally speaking, the survey might be somewhat accurate, who knows.

      Stosh

      Comment


      • #4
        Kinda amazing how 2.4% of the population can and does have such an impact on the other 97.6% of those that do have some relevant spirituality. It shows how powerful their impact can disrupt the vast majority of people and their beliefs. Beware America, the wolf is at the door.

        By the way, the 82% who "feel a connection to nature" are by definition Pantheists. That skews the results because we don't know how many "atheists" are really Pantheists.

        Stosh

        Comment


        • #5
          It's a bit higher than that, as the poll also says "More Americans say they do not believe in God or a universal spirit (7%) than say they are atheists (2.4%)", so it's more like 7% and 93%, but I assume part of jblake47's definition of "impact" are things like the removal of ten commandment monuments from public school property, so you can't simply compare 7% vs. 93% as part of that 93% agree with the government being neutral on religion. The head of Americans United for Separation of Church and State has been a UCC minister for decades.

          Comment


          • packsaddle
            packsaddle commented
            Editing a comment
            "Oh, and by the way, the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints is not Christian? What say ye, LDS scouters?"

            I am not LDS but I asked this question years ago in these forums. Stosh might not have remember the answer but I do. The result was mixed. Some LDS persons consider themselves to be Christian, others don't. The response wasn't large enough to try to calculate what fraction each represented but suffice to say....even LDS members are mixed in their answer to that question.

          • dcsimmons
            dcsimmons commented
            Editing a comment
            From lds.org: We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son. (http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/...ter-day-saints). My understanding is the Mormon Theology doesn't hold up the triune God but that's just my understanding.

          • jblake47
            jblake47 commented
            Editing a comment
            Kinda sounds like any other Christian group to me. Of course, every Catholic, Lutheran and Baptist follow the letter of the law of their denominations too.

            And I'm the accused of attaching other faith groups? Yeah right. I'm not Mormon, but I defend their right to be anything they want to be, if they claim witness to Christ, then they are Christian. I think there is a biblical verse that addresses this whole issue when the disciples of Jesus were complaining that others, not of their group, were witnessing about Him. Jesus' retort was not what they wanted to hear.

            AND, just for fun, show me where in Biblical Scriptures, polygamy is prohibited. It's just man-made rule, not a Biblical principle.

            Polygamy - having one too many wives.
            Monogamy - having one too many wives at times.



            Stosh
            Last edited by jblake47; 10-25-2013, 07:35 AM.

        • #6
          As a member of a UCC church I can confirm that for the folks in Cleveland UCC does indeed stand for Unitarians Considering Christ....

          Comment


          • #7
            Stosh - would you mind sharing your education background (e.g., public, secular private, religious, homeschooling) and religious background (e.g., Baptist, Pentacostal)? I think it would help us understand where you are coming from. One tends to assume that we all have similar backgrounds, attended similar churches and learned in the traditional education system. I may be completely wrong but I'm assuming that you were taught in a non-mainstream education system.

            Comment


            • jblake47
              jblake47 commented
              Editing a comment
              Stosh - would you mind sharing your education background (e.g., public, secular private, religious, homeschooling)

              Public school through college (Computer Science, Business Admin, & Psychology). 4 years post graduate study in theology, Catholic/Presbyterian/Lutheran consortium. Semi-professional historian.

              and religious background (e.g., Baptist, Pentacostal)?

              Baptized: Evangelical Reformed
              Grew up: Methodist
              Confirmed: Lutheran
              Current: No affiliation, attend worship regularly, but not necessarily at anyone church. Currently involved for various reasons in 3 different congregations in the community. Oops, because of my new troop formation I'm involved with, I'm involved with 4 congregations.

              I think it would help us understand where you are coming from. One tends to assume that we all have similar backgrounds, attended similar churches and learned in the traditional education system. I may be completely wrong but I'm assuming that you were taught in a non-mainstream education system.

              Nope, except for theological study, all in the Public Schools!

              been there done that, seen a lot of different issues from a wide variety of different views, all of it Christian. My background in religion and history is where I am coming from in this discussion. In my basement I have at least 30' of floor to ceiling bookshelves of just about everything interesting.

              Stosh
              Last edited by jblake47; 10-24-2013, 11:23 AM.

          • #8
            I'm just a simple IT guy but to Stosh's point, there are a couple of ways to deal with religious elements in the public space. The first and easier is to remove them, the second and harder is to welcome all comers. My understanding is either will pass muster in the public square. When the choice always seems to fall to the former, rather than the latter, the implication is we are becoming god-less or at least icon-less.

            Comment


            • King Ding Dong
              King Ding Dong commented
              Editing a comment
              DC, I think you will be hard pressed to find an instance of Pastafarians demanding the removal of religious symbols. Quite the opposite. Christians tend to get very upset when FSM displays are erected.

              One example of Pastafarians being persecuted by Christians.

              http://www.examiner.com/article/past...-tree-rejected
              Last edited by King Ding Dong; 10-25-2013, 09:05 AM.

            • jblake47
              jblake47 commented
              Editing a comment
              Crabby people are only looking for excuses to be crabby. Religion is just a cop-out excuse for being crabby.

              A true Christian knows, God doesn't need our protection from the world. He does just fine on his own. He'll be around long after the crabby people are gone.

            • King Ding Dong
              King Ding Dong commented
              Editing a comment
              So let me get this straight. You claim Christians are persecuted and when shown evidence of Christians in government persecuting another religion you chalk it up to "crabby" ?

          • #9
            Well, how 'bout a ""Faith and Chaplaincy Sub Forum""?
            As a Jambo Chaplain, I can say there is alot of religiosity out in Scout Land. I think the difference is more in people seeing less necessity in ritual, than in belief. I have met alot of "I'm a catholic but..." folks of late. And similarly in other faiths, " I'm an XYZ but...". Have you read the new MoU from the Lutheran Missouri Synod? There has been a raprochment (sp?) between the BSA and the late anti-BSA synod. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pd...isso_synod.pdf .
            In the District I Commish, I sense a desire among Units to accomodate (yes, there is one home school evangelical Catholic Troop that is very exclusionary and may not recharter this year.) different faiths, even the professed agnostic or athiest.



            Comment


            • jblake47
              jblake47 commented
              Editing a comment
              "Look, YOU MADE A CLAIM. Back it up or shut up."

              Hmmmm, so now I'm not entitled to express any opinion on my beliefs? I was wondering how long it was going to take you to finally get around to the real issue.

              So, here's how it goes. In this country, under the Bill of Rights, I have the freedom to express my opinions in a free-thinking society uninhibited by bullies, distractors, or any thing else that would keep me from that process of expression.

              The key to the whole thing is, tolerance allows a person to politely listen, consider it, judge it, and if the conclusion doesn't suit the listener, they can then express their opinions under the same conditions and the two can either further dialog it or walk away. Only the bully will remain and attempt to intimidate the other into silence.

              By the way, feel free to cut/paste any of my comments where I attacked you personally. Want me to do it too?

              Stosh
              Last edited by jblake47; 10-25-2013, 04:16 PM.

            • Merlyn_LeRoy
              Merlyn_LeRoy commented
              Editing a comment
              Hmmmm, so now I'm not entitled to express any opinion on my beliefs?

              You can babble all you want; however, I'll keep noting that you don't back up what you claim.

              So, here's how it goes. In this country, under the Bill of Rights, I have the freedom to express my opinions in a free-thinking society uninhibited by bullies, distractors, or any thing else that would keep me from that process of expression.

              Wrong. You can express your opinion, and people can criticize what you say, call you names, or any number of things because THEY ALSO have freedom of speech. But notice none of these actions keep you from expressing yourself, so the last part of your sentence is wrong in that you haven't given an example of anything that keeps you from that process of expression.

              The key to the whole thing is, tolerance allows a person to politely listen, consider it, judge it, and if the conclusion doesn't suit the listener, they can then express their opinions under the same conditions and the two can either further dialog it or walk away. Only the bully will remain and attempt to intimidate the other into silence.

              Too damn bad for tender ears like yours -- should I fetch your fainting couch?

              Other people have first amendment rights, and they aren't restricted to polite speech.

              By the way, feel free to cut/paste any of my comments where I attacked you personally.

              When did I say you attacked me personally? Is this another bizarre non-sequitur of yours?

              By the way, what's an example of this US religious intolerance you say exists? Is it like bigfoot -- you have to believe it exists before you can see it?

            • jblake47
              jblake47 commented
              Editing a comment
              Isn't it strange that civility and civilization both come from the same root word?

          • #10
            Yes, the ACLU has defended many religious tolerance cases. And the one Jblake notes has nothing to do with religion, as far as I can see. And our athiest friends often do not get the understanding they deserve. And the so-called Christian right often does not allow for other types of faith.
            We still have a better time of it than , I think, any other country in the world. We do have the means to discuss (not just cuss) and, depending on what Holy Script you follow (and often what PART of that script), the basis for finding out where we agree and where we part company. And for that, I give thanks.

            Comment


            • Merlyn_LeRoy
              Merlyn_LeRoy commented
              Editing a comment
              Has the military in any of those countries defined Christianity as a hate group in any of those countries like it has in ours?

              That hasn't happened. What HAS happened is that a specific organization, the Family Research Council, has been designated a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center because they use discredited studies to deliberately lie about gays.

            • jblake47
              jblake47 commented
              Editing a comment
              So then the US government can prejudiciously stereotype Christian groups the way those groups are perceived to stereotype others?

              Hmmm, do the math. One group is a hate group for stereotyping but the group that stereotypes them is not? Okay, that adds up for me too.

              If the Thought Police are ever turned out in force, we'd all be arrested. I kinda thought one had to actually DO something to commit a crime.

              Stosh
              Last edited by jblake47; 10-25-2013, 04:01 PM.

            • Merlyn_LeRoy
              Merlyn_LeRoy commented
              Editing a comment
              So then the US government can prejudiciously stereotype Christian groups the way those groups are perceived to stereotype others?

              Nope, stereotyping is not the same as deliberately using discredited studies.

              One group is a hate group for stereotyping but the group that stereotypes them is not?

              Nope. But you don't understand things.

              If the Thought Police are ever turned out in force, we'd all be arrested. I kinda thought one had to actually DO something to commit a crime.

              Be as paranoid as you like, I find your paranoia entertaining.

          • #11
            "The line between investigating and persecuting is a very fine one and the junior Senator from Wisconsin has stepped over it repeatedly. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep into our own history and our doctrine and remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes which were for the moment unpopular. This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthty's methods to keep silent. We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result." - Edward R. Murrow

            Comment


            • #12
              jblake47: If the US is truly a religiously tolerant country, why would any one have to compromise the "free expression" of their beliefs or have to alter them to accommodate someone else's complaint. The tolerance is a two-way street.

              Merlyn: I know it's futile to ask, but DO YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE INSTEAD OF YOUR USUAL VAGUE HANDWAVING?

              Well, for starters:

              Numerous Christian business owners are being told by the state they have to provide services for LGBT weddings that their religious beliefs oppose, or lose their livelihoods:

              Some examples:

              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1721093.html

              http://www.kcci.com/Wedding-Cake-Bat...w/-/index.html

              http://www.komonews.com/news/local/A...=video&c=y

              http://blog.timesunion.com/kristi/li...-couple/51576/

              http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3720447.html

              http://www.santafenewmexican.com/new...469e212ca.html

              http://news.yahoo.com/judge-stays-wa...234245194.html

              http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/20/us...mont.html?_r=0

              Catholic adoption agencies have lost their state funding because they can't assist LGBT couples to adopt children, in violation of their consciences.

              http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...wgh.asp?page=1

              Comment


              • packsaddle
                packsaddle commented
                Editing a comment
                AZMike, do you think a religious belief is a legitimate basis to break a law?

            • #13
              Atheists have sued the IRS over not clamping down on ministers claiming the right of free expression from the pulpit

              http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/15/atheists-sue-irs-for-pulpit-freedom-sunday/

              The government claims their HHS contraception and abortifacient mandate trumps an enumerated constitutional right, and that individuals can't claim religious freedoms when operating their businesses (but they just got their hand slapped by the D.C. Appellate Court this week, which may affect some of the cases above...:

              http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/02/us/court-rules-contraception-mandate-infringes-on-religious-freedom.html

              An atheist pressure group demands the military punish a military chaplain for exercising his First Amendment rights, because their feelings might be hurt:

              http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2013/07/24/Military-Censors-Christian-Chaplain-Atheists-Call-for-Punishment

              Atheists in Santa Monica have misused the civic process to prevent Christians and Jews from erecting religious displays, as allowed by law:

              http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/22/us/california-nativity-atheists/index.html?_s=PM:US

              An atheist group fought to prevent a school from allowing a school to take kids to a church to watch a Peanuts cartoon:

              http://atlanta.cbslocal.com/2012/11/20/atheist-group-backs-parents-who-are-upset-school-wants-to-take-kids-to-see-charlie-brown-christmas-at-church/

              Atheists have erected their own monuments to their faith on public land, incidentally, using a nonsensical quote from that old dingbat atheist leader, Madlyn Murray O'Hare:

              http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/28/unveiling-americas-first-public-monument-to-atheism/

              Comment


              • #14
                State-funded colleges have demanded that religious clubs must allow people must not prohibit those who do not hold those religious beliefs from joining or becoming officers, in violation of the enumerated constitutional right to Freedom of Association:

                http://dailycaller.com/2012/01/31/va...hat-important/

                The American Atheists Association has sued to prevent the 9-11 Cross from being displayed in the 9-11 Museum.

                http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...iel-botwinick#

                Government officials have misused their powers to deny business licenses to those whose religious beliefs differ from those held by the government officials on LGBT marriage:

                http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1703770.html

                Atheist groups have tried to remove two 13 foot crosses in a remote area of Camp Pendleton erected as a war monument to fallen Marines:

                http://radio.foxnews.com/2012/04/12/...removed-video/

                Atheists tried to remove the name "Seven in Heaven" next to a fire station which lost 7 firefighters in 9-11

                http://blog.heritage.org/2011/07/12/...ecious-to-all/

                An atheist group intimidated a city into dropping a historic Chtristian landmark from its seal (which begs the question - why don't they have a problem with San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, Corpus Christi, and thousands of other historic place names that honor our Christian heritage?):

                http://www.thenewamerican.com/cultur...m-logo?start=3

                I could go on and on, and on, but the fact is that atheists, and those pursuing secular goals, have attempted to impinge on the religious rights of Americans, and the right of religious beliefs to have a place in the marketplace of ideas.

                Comment


                • #15
                  The philosophy of the basis of their thinking is rooted in the creation of the world without God's intervention, i.e. evolution. According to them, everything we have and are simply evolved from natural causes.

                  No problem with this, except it is diametrically opposite to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, one God created it. They have shed their various mythology stories along the way, but the dynamics of their beliefs have remained constant throughout history. Yes, there are people of these three religious beliefs that believe in evolution, but the struggle against heresies has always been there as well especially when it is packaged as pretty tempting philosophy. Looks good on the surface, but once you peel back a couple of layers, things fall apart pretty quickly.

                  AZMike, you are never going to convince people who do such things that they are doing anything wrong, they are masters of working within and manipulating the "systems" of this world. They are of this world because they have no God. Jews, Christians and Muslims have been persecuted over the years starting right from the very beginning. You are seeing a pretty mild form of persecution compared to what these heresies and human idolatry have done in the past. I have to admit, I admire the religious tenacity of the Jews and Muslims, who have hung on to their faith a lot stronger than Christians have. Of course they have been persecuted a lot more and that may be the reason for it.

                  Christianity was a lot stronger when it was persecuted, so what you are describing in your post doesn't surprise me, but it doesn't concern me much either. It's just a matter of time before they find some new de jour to complain about. Tolerance is not their strong point. For a Christian, it is a virtue.

                  Once you Name the enemy, it looses its power over you. Ask your Jewish friends that that means, they'll know.

                  Stosh

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