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  • LDS?????

    I am mystified by all the LDS hatin going on........There are a few units in our district they show up to roundtable and seem to be decent enough folk.......

    When to a meeting at their church and was caught off guard by the ban on scoutmaster fuel, coffee.

    they keep to themselves around here, they have their own week at summer camp, Where special under wear, learned that last presidential campaign......

    so explain to me all the hatin going on?????

    The way I see it they are just trying to get by just like the rest of us.

    the only hatin I see going on in my life is the rich hatin the poor and vice verse.

  • #2
    I haven't seen any hating in my council.


    • #3
      I didn't know they had special underwear. That sounds like golden trivia stuff to me. Not much different than a yarmulke though is it?

      BD are you talking about hating within the BSA or in the general population? Hating BSA program within LDS, or just plain ole hating them Mormon folk?

      I've only known a few Mormon. I liked them all very much. Especially the ones that took the time out to explain bits of their religion to me when I had questions.


      • NeverAnEagle
        NeverAnEagle commented
        Editing a comment
        The magic underwear is refereed to as their "garments" which are more like a shorts set. The men's shorts come down to the knee and have an undershirt that goes with them. (No Idea what the ladies wear.) I do know that they are never to be taken off and that after marriage each spouse is allowed to open the seams in the crotch area to allow for intercourse. The truly devout don't even take them off to bathe.

        We have LDS haters here too. You find hating where you find people unwilling to learn about each others religions; fear spawns hate.

    • #4
      LDS as a whole has enormous power over all aspects of bsa. With this power they are able to control or at least attempt to control everyone else. As many also see lds policies as contradictory to their own and likely the oath/law as well conflict will continue to arise.

      Locally there really arent all that many lds units and since they seem to stick mainly to themselves to avoid conflicting values with the general public. Dont particularity care what these lds units do at their own meetings as long as they arent trying to hurt anyone else.


      • #5
        I have a few opinions on how some LDS units in my town may run the program--pencil whipping, and Eagle Milling but that is par for the course anyway. On the whole everyone I have met has been polite, pretty well behaved, and well uniformed. OK by me.


        • #6
          The LDS got a ton of flack in California for backing Prop. 8 which banned same-sex marriage. LDS urged their members to give to a pro-Prop 8 and 45% of the money came from Utah. Many people were pretty pissed off at LDS for that. The backlash surprised LDS who has been reaching out to the gay community and make amends. LDS also has a reputation of not being very welcoming to African-Americans. Mormons are also very conservative. The Mormons I personally know are very decent folk.


          • #7
            Yeah, don't know about the bashing of their religion, except perhaps frustration when their religious views influence BSA policy with no regard for anyone else's religious views.. Otherwise, all I have heard is the complaining about them running a different program then the rest of us, which is thought to be sub-par for the most part, unless they give the SM position to someone who is really interested in the program, and doing it right.. But, that sort of talk isn't just reserved for LDS groups, it is for anyone we think is not running the program correctly.. So no special treatment there.

            Don't know otherwise about complaint of them as people, or of their religion.. Like everyone says, person to person they are very nice people..


            • #8
              Yeah, well, LDS is kind of a ... OK , not really a mixed bag. A lot of Mormons are personally decent folk. But the entire community/church/political/court-room thing can get rather weird. And through a gay friend or two I've been picking up on some extra Mormon weirdness with regards to homosexuality within the community, but I'm not qualified to speak on that except to say that there is something going on there.

              For normal district-level stuff, there can be a lot of frustration felt by non-Mormons. There are district-level Camporalls planned and executed, but all the Mormon units pull out on Saturday night in order to be in church Sunday morning, thus also pulling out of the Sunday activities. Basically, the Mormons and the non-Mormons end up running their own separate and practically independent programs. Within any group/organization, you want to be able to work with everybody, but at the same time the Mormons keep themselves separate from the rest.

              Another element is the political/judicial. The Mormon Church has selected Boy Scouts, Inc, as its male youth program. As such, every Mormon boy is required to participate in BSA Scouting. Whether a boy actually participates or not, the Mormon Church enrolls him in BSA's Scouting programs up until he reaches the age of 18. Regardless. But wait, we haven't gotten to the weird part yet. The Mormon Church programs every single boy to "Eagle out" by age 14. Every Mormon boy's actual involvement with Scouting is programmed to end at age 14, and yet the Mormon Church continues to enroll and pay for every single Mormon male until he reaches the age of 18. So what are those boys doing between 14 and 18? Mormon sports programs!

              Now for the judicial angle. In the religious discrimination lawsuits of the early 1990's, a recurring and staple position of the BSA lawyers arguing in the various courts was that BSA really didn't want to discriminate against these other religious groups (eg, atheists), but they were being extorted by the Mormon Church. If BSA were to allow even a single atheist to join Scouting, then the Mormon Church would withdraw all its support, which would be economically devastating to BSA, Inc. Of course, the BSA lawyers were never known to ever be consistent as they also argued that BSA was a secret religious organization and had been from the start, BSA had never ever been a secret religious organization even from the start, etc. Basically, whatever outright lie the BSA lawyers could tell whenever it suited them.

              So basically, the Mormon units seem to be running their own program separate from everybody else, which causes friction with non-Mormons.

              A Mormon afterthought, if I may. Back circa 1986, a male co-worker had married a Mormon woman and had hence married into the church. One day he came in to work and was complaining loudly and bitterly of what had just been done to him. He had just been drafted as Cubmaster. As he loudly proclaimed to everybody at work, "I have two daughters! I have no sons!". Basically, the Church tells you what your job will be and that is it. Here is the non-Mormons' take on that. Yes, all the positions do get filled, but what kind of service is rendered? Mormon "volunteers" render as much service as they are required to render, and no more. Think of the volunteer's line, "What is the least that I can do? And I do mean the very least." Mormon "volunteers" do the absolute minimum that is required of them and not one bit more (obvious individual exceptions duly noted). Non-Mormon volunteers are not required to fill a position and so they normally will put out that 110% and more (I will digress on that later) and will do so cheerfully instead of begrudgingly. In my years at District Roundtable representing my sons' troop, that dichotomy between Church-required service and actual service came up again and again. There is a definite difference between meeting a required commitment, which would be the Mormon model, and actually volunteering our time, which would be the non-Mormon model.

              "110%". When I was a kid, I couldn't understand that, since there could not possibly be more than 100% of anything.

              As a retired Chief Petty Officer with 35 years of service, I understand it fully. When you give 100%, what really are you giving? You do everything that is required of you.That is what giving 100% is, doing everything that is required of you. In school, do you know what grade that would give you? A "C". So another word for "100%" would be "mediocre." How then can you excel? By giving more than is required of you. By giving more than 100% Like giving 110%.

              That is the meaning of "giving 110%". And that is what I taught my Webelos.

              Hu Rah!


              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                What job can you be wrong over 30% of the time? Meteorologist.

                In my opinion I would also add physician. They get paid wrong or right. Don't see many unemployed doctors.

              • DWise1_AOL
                DWise1_AOL commented
                Editing a comment
                KBB, ever see Steve Martin's movie, "L.A. Story"? Loved that movie! He was a TV weatherman. The weather reports for Los Angeles were always the same, so he took a day off and just reran an old "sonny" forecast when in reality a major storm hit that sank the station owner's boat.

                KBB, have you ever had to troubleshoot a PC? You look at the symptoms and you try to figure out what's wrong. If you're right, then you're a hero, but if you're wrong then what the ?, we just have to replace a computer.

                Have you ever troubleshot a person? You look at the symptoms and you try to figure out what's wrong. If you're right, then you're a hero, but if you're wrong then what the ?, you just killed somebody.

                Same thing, isn't that? Kill a computer, kill a person. And yet, somehow it seems to feel kind of different, wouldn't you agree?

                I remember one commedian/commedienne who was talking about terminal diseases. That person was wanting to see what his physician's actual grades were in his own personal condition. OK, you did OK overall, but how especially did you do with prostate cancer? Or with breast cancer (a very particular concern of mine since a very dear friend of mine has it)?

                My very dear friend has breast cancer, dammit! I do not want her care to go to some fracking idiot who only got a 70% grade on breast cancer! I want her to be treated by the people who got over 100%!!!! [remark removed by moderator because of 'F' word]

                In the real world, 100% does not cut it one least bit!
                Last edited by packsaddle; 09-23-2013, 06:03 AM. Reason: I can appreciate the emphasis that seems to come with the prolific use of the 'f' word but it crosses a line due to the certainty that there are also boys reading these threads.

              • DWise1_AOL
                DWise1_AOL commented
                Editing a comment
                packsaddle: Sorry about that. She means a lot to me.

                KDD, a friend in my two-step class tonight offered a real-world case. She's an office manager who had lost her long-time job over a year ago when the viable company she worked for closed down because the banks refused them a business loan. For more than a year she tried to find work but, being too old and unable to accept a ridiculously low salary she had no luck. During the past year, she has used up almost all of her savings just to be able to survive. Her boyfriend has an advanced degree in mathematics with practical engineering experience. He has also been out of work for a long time, being too old and "too qualified." At least he had planned ahead for retirement (he did the math, don'cha know?) and considers himself as having retired early. Tonight, she referenced a study that says that almost everybody over a certain age (mid-50's, I think) who lost their job will never be able to get another job.

                She beat that statistic, having gotten a job a few months ago. She replaced a much younger worker who got fired for being 100%. They just simply could not afford to keep that 100%-er. She showed up all the time and did everything that she was told to do. And nothing more than that. She would perform every task she was told to perform and then when she was done with that she would sit there and check her on-line status. She gave 100% and clearly that was not enough. She lacked initiative.

                My friend gives 110%. She shows initiative. When she has completed a task, she looks for what needs to be done and then she does it. That is what 110% is about. That is why it is so important.

                Here is another example. I used to be married. I am a computer professional (software engineer) and my wife was a non-computer person. In fact, the main thing that motivated her to learn more was when her equally non-tech mother started doing email, though she really came up to speed during the year that she worked on her master's in education. Her first exposure to a word processor was when I installed a DOS version of WordPerfect at home. She needed to use it for school, but she refused to learn it. We both had learned touch-typing in school and on a typewriter you had to format as you went; while I had broken free of that paradigm, she was still locked into it which caused problems. Since she refused to learn anything about using the computer, her "solution" was for me to stand over her shoulder and tell her every key combination to press. That was unacceptable, so I suggested that she type everything in and I could then come back and format it, but she refused that idea because she was still trapped within the typewriter paradigm of having to format your document as you type it. It did not end well. When I later installed a Windows version of Word and didn't tell anybody about it, the very next day I came home from work and found our older son (maybe about 10 years old) using it. So she started paying him by the page to do her word processing for her. Clever little genius that he was, he used the largest font possible in order to run up the number of pages. They straightened all that out between each other, but with her master's degree she learned to do the work herself.

                The point to all that is my ex-wife's attitude at that time. She didn't want to take any initiative to actually learn what to do, but rather she wanted me to stand over her shoulder to tell her everything to do. Does that sound at all familiar? Doesn't that sound like the mind-set of a 100%-er? "Tell me everything to do. Stand over my shoulder and tell me every move to make." That is what it is like to have a 100%-er work for you. You have to organize and present and supervise every single task for your subordinates. So while you are busy micro-managing every single thing that all your subordinates do, when are you ever able to do your own job? I have been trained in Marxism. We were trained in Marxism by the United States Air Force in our first resident NCO leadership school. A central idea in Marxism was that it was the workers who created the actual production while the managers were parasites feeding off of the workers' production. But what that ignores is that it is the work of the managers that enables the workers to do their work. Of course, I benefited from having worked for my father, a general contractor and Seabee Chief Petty Officer (unfortunately, he had died a year before I made chief myself). When I started working for him, his first imperative was to let me know that he had done everything that he was telling me to do and that he was willing and able to still do it himself if necessary. The main point being that by having me do the dirty work, that freed him to do the job of securing the work for us to do and of providing everything that I needed to do the job that I was doing. Management is not a pack of parasites feeding off the sweat of the workers. Management is what provides the work for the workers and enables them to to that work.

                So then, management has a lot more important things to do than to stand over every worker and micro-manage them. Any 100%-er who keeps them from doing their job is a liability. Any less-than-100%-er, such as a 70%-er, is a far greater liability. What company can afford to carry such a liability?

                We all need to be 110%-ers just to survive. Unless our father or father-in-law runs the company.

            • #9
              This last election, we had a Mormon running for President.

              I very personally observed and personally experienced what happens when Mormons take over an institution, such as BSA, Inc. For backing, I refer to Penn and Teller's ZBullshit! episode which cited the Mormon take-over of BSA in the 1980's.

              I did not vote for Romney, but it was not because he is a Mormon. Really, there were so very many problems with voting him, Mormonism was the least of my concerns. But still, having seen what an absolutely mess they have made of BSA, how could we ever trust them with the US government?


              • NeverAnEagle
                NeverAnEagle commented
                Editing a comment
                If they ran the government we wouldn't be in debt, LOL! Heck, we'd have enough surplus to last for three years!

            • #10
              You all make me laugh. "I have Mormon friends..." Now, where have I heard that before........


              • #11
                The LDS units' information is always absent from the contact info when I send a list of packs to the DE so I can send open house info. The first time I figured it was an oversight, the second time I knew better, ever since it's just been an inside joke with me, myself, and I to request it every year knowing it won't come.


                • #12
                  Over 24 hours have passed BD and you have not answered any of the questions posed to you on your thread. What gives ? What hate are you referring to ? Can you give examples ? Is it in general or specific to this board ? Is the hate you see in regards to their religious beliefs or their BSA units ? Trailer Life locking them out ? Their power within the BSA ? I have my issues with you but I don't hate you. You are like Oscar on Sesame Steet. A lovable grouch.


                  • #13
                    In the two districts around here a bunch of LDS lady scouters have taken over the Cub Leader Training and Baloo and OWL and are doing a bang up job. (It was a hot mess before.) I don't know everyone's church affiliation, but I suspect a number of the volunteers on the district and council committees are LDS. In the neighboring district a LDS troop puts on a huge MB university every year that is widely attended.

                    From some of my LDS friends I have heard that members campaign with their bishop to get the scouting assignments. And that members who don't get the scouting assignment often still continue to volunteer in Scouting.

                    That said, it does interrupt the action when ANY troops leave events early. LDS boys themselves might be bothered by their troops rules.....


                    • #14
                      Man y'all would hate my unit. Won't come to an event on Saturday, have to camp over from Friday. We bring our own food, religious services Saturday morning, can't do Scout's own... Campsite construction stops cold 18 minutes before sundown... Yes my district works with us to include us instead of using our differences to excuse bigotry.


                      • NeverAnEagle
                        NeverAnEagle commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Are you Jewish? I've only met one Jewish Scout in my life-time. He offered to pray at a Summer Camp and had to endure taunts of "Hats Off!" because he was wearing that special cap they have. It was the opinion of the surrounding Scouters that he should not be allowed to pray i he wouldn't show the "proper respect" by taking off his hat. I'm betting he never went back to that camp.

                        Glad to hear you found somewhere that will work with your unit.

                      • NJCubScouter
                        NJCubScouter commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Well, NeverAnEagle, you have now "met" at least two Jewish Scouters online. It is unfortunate that the one Jewish Scout you met had to endure bigotry because of his religious headwear, which is called a kippah (Hebrew) or a yarmulke (Yiddish.) Even worse is the fact that some of the intolerance and ignorance was coming from adults (which is where it almost always starts anyway; show me a kid who is a bigot and I already know something about their parents.)
                        Last edited by NJCubScouter; 09-30-2013, 06:31 PM.

                    • #15
                      I have no beef with the LDS as part of the BSA. Here locally, there are not that many Mormon churches and the units are very small. In fact, some have consolidated in order to have a viable unit. They do not participate in district or council events or the OA. I can't really speak to training, but I suspect they don't participate much in that either. Part of the issue I believe is that many of the registered leaders in an LDS unit are not volunteers, but voluntold by their bishop that they were selected for the job. That being said, I do know a few LDS scouters in my council who have a true love for scouting. One in particular has staffed a couple of WB courses, runs our IOLS program and has staffed at least the last 3 Jambos.....and he doesn't even have Boy Scout aged children yet. Another LDS scouter I know went as one of our ASM's to Jambo this year. But for the most part, I've never laid eyes on most of our LDS scouters.

                      A side note and persnoal observation. Many....not all.....but many of the instances we've seen in national news where a youth has died on an outing or became lost, come from LDS units. I personally believe that the reason for this is again because the adults are voluntold to take their position and that they do not willingly participate in available training or in district and council opportunities where they can network and discuss topics with other scouters.