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Trail Life confused over who they are?????

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  • #46
    Originally posted by NJCubScouter View Post
    I believe the Pope wears one as well, and I have seen photos of Cardinals in the Catholic church wearing them, though I suspect they don't call them yarmulkes.
    Right, it is called the "zuchetto". I believe it originated as a way for clergy to cover their tonsure (the part of the head that is shaven) and has remained even though the tonsure has been more or less done away with.

    Now you can all go back to your regularly scheduled discussion of Trail Life. About which I will say, basically I agree with you. The only situation in which I could see a Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist boy wanting to join Trail Life is if he were friends with a bunch of other boys who were joining, and even then I would expect most parents to try to steer their son toward an organization that was equally welcoming to all religions. (I know that's what I would do if I still had a son of Scout age.)
    With what I've seen from Trail Life USA, I can say that as a Catholic I would not want my sons to join. It seems like it is basically a Protestant organization.

    Comment


    • moosetracker
      moosetracker commented
      Editing a comment
      Huzzar you forgot the Methodists and United Church of Christ also.. All 4 of these are not small communities within the Protestant community.. We may have forgotten one or two other large bodies, but I know there are other smaller groups.. I just know that I do look for Protestant churches with a more modern views, and they are very easy to find in my community..

      Therefore I would not say "mainstream" rejects the views of liberal churches.. I would say half of protestant church's are conservative, and half are not. Same with Catholic churches..

      I am curious to see the new Popes liberal views on Catholics being more welcoming and being concerned about poverty and not about social issues.. He is now taking the Catholic church back to the viewpoint of "Love they neighbor as thy self" and "He who is without sin, cast the first stone".. So this is going to cause anger with his conservation population.. As stated he is not changing the catholic doctrines, but he is seeing it as something not to be highlighted and dwelled upon, and in the light of "We are all sinners" and one sin is not greater then another persons sin.. We may soon see a split off of Conservative Catholics due to this shift, but it sounds like a lot of Catholics are excited about the change in tone. Sort of the Pope now in agreement with the views of the "Nuns on the bus", where last years the nuns were being chastised and punished by the last pope for being more concerned about poverty, then about gays. abortions and contraception.. All I can way is I for one think it is a positive direction for Catholics.. I hope this new pope lives long and prospers..
      Last edited by moosetracker; 09-20-2013, 03:53 AM.

    • Horizon
      Horizon commented
      Editing a comment
      Presbyterians under PCUSA are NOT having the national body push gay rights. We voted on it. The United States Constitution is, in many ways, modeled after the Presbyterians (the Minister who signed the Declaration? Witherspoon? Presbyterian). To get something passed, it must come from the States first (Presbyteries), then be voted on at the Congress (Assembly), then be RE-affirmed at the NEXT meeting of the Assembly. Yes, some congregations are leaving after losing two votes in a row. But that does NOT mean that this is pushed from above - this has been a long-fought battle for years. My wife was on Session back in the 80s when this was being debated. It just took until recently until it made it through the General Assembly. Here is the thing, individual churches STILL choose their minister (we don't appoint them, each congregation chooses theirs). So a conservative congregation is under zero requirement to accept a gay minister. Local control lives in the PCUSA.

    • NJCubScouter
      NJCubScouter commented
      Editing a comment
      Horizon: John Witherspoon, a New Jersey guy. (And a somewhat comic figure in the movie "1776", because everybody likes to make fun of New Jersey. But looking at his portrait on Wikipedia, he seems like a pretty serious person.)

  • #47
    When there is more revealed about TLUSA's actual program and organizational structure , it might be interesting to have a topic where there is some comparisons made between their operation and the ours in BSA. There may be some good ideas floating around in a new and forming group that we could borrow and modify to make our program better.
    Hopefully if that more positive and constructive topic is introduced it will not get deleted by a moderator or the site owner. Yeah, I know this topic that survived the purge about TL being "confused" about who they are makes it easy to take shots at them and makes us real Scouters feel so much better about ourselves. I do think a more objective study of the nuts and bolts of a potential competitor could be more constructive and helpful to us as we do our jobs of serving youth.

    Comment


    • WAKWIB
      WAKWIB commented
      Editing a comment
      The topic is old news now. I posted a link to TL's website on the weekend of their convention, to their press release. It was up for a couple of days and had some comments. It vanished. Repeated the process and it was up for less than a day, I think, and disappeared.

    • packsaddle
      packsaddle commented
      Editing a comment
      The OTHER reason that I think NJ is correct is that from what I understand of those original disappeared posts, they didn't actually contain anything that warranted deletion, at least in comparison to some of the much more incendiary topics that have been 'floated' in these forums in the past. I'd bet the ranch on the 'coincidence' option.

    • WAKWIB
      WAKWIB commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree, Pack. At least with what you say about the incendiary tone. It wasn't there, yet. Even this topic thread is quite tame compared to dozens I have seen in the past.

  • #48
    If a church is having misgivings about hosting a BSA unit, maybe this is their program.

    But, I would be concerned if, for example, the best canoeing instructor in the community is non-Christian, and my youth want to develop a long term canoeing program. I would like to be able to incorporate that person in an official capacity in my unit. Sounds like the TL leaders are going to have to work around obstacles like that.

    Comment


    • Basementdweller
      Basementdweller commented
      Editing a comment
      I would like to see boys be able to enjoy shooting AR style rifles.....Why?

      Because that is what they are into.

    • King Ding Dong
      King Ding Dong commented
      Editing a comment
      They can't now at a range ?

    • Basementdweller
      Basementdweller commented
      Editing a comment
      Under the lovely umbrella of scouting

      I can't take the boy scout troop to the range and shoot 9mm pistols or 223 ar rifles or even semi automatic rifles....

      Now as a group of friends and families we could do it.......Outside of the umbrella...we could go shoot what ever anybody owns......

  • #49
    Originally posted by qwazse View Post
    If a church is having misgivings about hosting a BSA unit, maybe this is their program.
    .
    Right now the spotlight seems to be on the churches that are recently dropping BSA and considering TLUSA, but I think there is an even greater potential market in those churches who have never sponsored a Scouting unit or haven't for a very long time. That is a variable that may be greater that even TLUSA expects. There seems to be a genuine surprise among TL leadership about how this thing has gained momentum. I don't think that it's all about the gay issue, or even all about Christianity. I think the sense of this being a new, grass-roots, reimaging of scouting has a lot of appeal. Honestly, that is why I find it so fascinating. I've heard people cuss and discuss various problems with Scouting for 40 years. Everyone has a big idea of what they would do if they were "king of the forest." Now we can see what happens when folks get off the pot and concentrate some creative effort to make some of these changes.
    Last edited by WAKWIB; 09-19-2013, 10:12 PM. Reason: sometimes forget how to type!

    Comment


    • #50
      I am King of the Forest....

      I am a Scoutmaster of a troop of 30 young men. We camp as a troop monthly, our patrols have monthly patrol outings. We participate in community service and are working on being Boy led. the patrols have a very strong patrol identity and I couldn't happier.

      Very Little national says actually impacts the youth in my program......We have, I suspect, gay youth as members already. We have gay scouters. we have muslims, jews, catholics atheist and all variety of protestants.


      I jump thru the training hoops, I jump thru the paper work hoops, I jump thru the rules hoops.......But ya know the boys never see it and probably could care less.



      Because I understand that scouting isn't about me.

      Comment


      • DigitalScout
        DigitalScout commented
        Editing a comment
        "No pooping in the sandbox." That would be a great bumper sticker or t-shirt.

      • King Ding Dong
        King Ding Dong commented
        Editing a comment
        Troop t-shirt ?

      • DWise1_AOL
        DWise1_AOL commented
        Editing a comment
        A commendable approach, Basementdweller. Run the program within the troop as it should be run and act as a buffer between the troop and BSA. Continue to keep BSA as far away from your unit and from your people as is possible.

    • #51
      It is highly likely that most youth under 14 or so really do not have a clue about what they really are. They go with what their parents tell them, or what they see as the cool thing to be, or something to that effect. Yes, a few may have actually began to postulate their eventual "adult" belief structure; but for the most part, they are not yet really very rational about it.

      Comment


      • #52
        Welp, a church down the road is killing its charter and forming a TL group. Guess how many of the boys are interested . . . if you said "0" claim your prize.

        Comment


        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          ON the TL forums there are a number of adults saying their entire unit is changing over to TL.....I was wondering how the boys feel about it.

          Good to hear, sad to lose a BSA unit.


          So 99 how many refugees have you picked up??????

        • Scouter99
          Scouter99 commented
          Editing a comment
          None so far, a couple visitors, but holding off to find a new CO for the whole troop if possible.

      • #53
        I was wondering about that Scouter99.. If the BSA group is mainly of the boys whose families are members of the church, their parents may have enough "buy in" to this change, but if the youth are not members of the church, the parents and boys may not have the same attitude toward it, and will move to units still running the BSA program.

        Comment


        • Eagledad
          Eagledad commented
          Editing a comment
          Why can't your SPL do both BD, a couple of my better SPLs were also in ROTC.

        • Scouter99
          Scouter99 commented
          Editing a comment
          This troop is mostly "aliens" to the church, so I doubt they've got youth buy in. My own troop hasn't had a boy from the CO church since the 1990s.

        • Basementdweller
          Basementdweller commented
          Editing a comment
          Oh he could do both.

          But he was talking about how much time he spent shining his shoes, But failed to plan the meeting that night. Missed the PLC to go to ROTC air rifle practice.

          It doesn't matter.

      • #54
        It's not too surprising that not many want to join. TLUSA sounds like a great program if you are in the aristocracy (Southern Baptist, Pentecost, Church of Christ) but not so good if you are peasant (everyone else).

        Comment


        • packsaddle
          packsaddle commented
          Editing a comment
          comment about the previous comment: HUH?

        • DWise1_AOL
          DWise1_AOL commented
          Editing a comment
          OK, so what is your avatar's origin? I know that it is not the Resistance ("Star Wars") and certainly is not the symbol of the Twelve Colonies of Kobold. Care to enlighten us?

        • DigitalScout
          DigitalScout commented
          Editing a comment
          DWise1_AOL, you had it. Rebel Alliance - Jedi Order. I'll admit it: a Star Wars geek. http://swfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_Order_(Free-edit)

      • #55
        JoeBob - "And while we're on the subject of things I don't know, I can't figure out your avatar. Is that supposed to be bat wings, or a butt hole? "

        That's funny JoeBob, because I did the same thing either this morning or yesterday.. I saw the butthole, then looked closer and saw the (what I thought to be flaming wings, sort of like a Phoenix".. It certainly is sort of like those inkblots where maybe you see the face or you see the vase..

        I do think church members are relatively nice to fellow church members, and agree it is not an aristocracy/peasant thing.. You can have rich or poor in any denomination.. But, not so sure that all religions are equally civil to members of other religions.. You definitely do have many who believe their religion is the one true belief, and everyone not of their faith is going to hell. Not ALL faiths mind you.. Not saying that.. But, it is in some failths, sometime taught by the leaders of the faith and sometimes. if not preached to think that way, you just have your independent thinkers who think and act that way..

        Comment


        • packsaddle
          packsaddle commented
          Editing a comment
          OK, I'm beginning to get the 'picture'. Fact is, from the very beginning, that avatar has always brought the words "Sturm Ruger" to my mind...yeah, I know it's not even close but that's what pops into this tortured mind.
          Last edited by packsaddle; 09-22-2013, 08:55 AM.

        • JoeBob
          JoeBob commented
          Editing a comment
          http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=0

          Ruger's logo is not that far off. Good catch, Packsaddle.

      • #56
        Let's see: the TLUSA was started mainly by Southern Baptists and they get to make the rules and decide the leaders. They devised rules such that the CO and unit leaders must believe in the Triune God and belong to "pure" churches. Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, Mormons and others are not "pure" since their churches allow gay members and/or clergy; they are welcome to join but are prohibited from leadership positions and decision making. They've set up two classes of membership. Why would anyone join if they are stuck in the lower class?

        ‚ÄčAlso, the way I read their Statement of Faith, divorced men and women are also excluded from leadership. They sure are fishing with a small net.

        Comment


        • moosetracker
          moosetracker commented
          Editing a comment
          tgrimstead - I wasn't even painting it with as wide a brush as TLUSA is suppose to represent, which they state is "Christian", not just Protestant.. But, narrowed it to Protestant because TLUSA seems to be more conceived by them.. Maybe this post seems to be hinting all protestants, but if you look at my other posts on this thread, I have definitely stated that not all Protestants fall into the same bucket..

          So, what you are admitting is some of what I have stated, TLUSA is not for all Christians, nor for all Protestants.. It is only for Conservative Protestants.. Simply a very small piece of pie.. So TLUSA, may take a sliver of members away from BSA, but they really can't hope to become a serious competitor to it.. Even if they try to entice churches that never sponsored a BSA unit..Unless perhaps the Baptist or Evangelicals want to do an LDS thing and force enroll all their youth boy church members to bring up the count.. Otherwise they are just too narrow in focus.

          No I am the first to cry fowl when someone lumps Protestants into one lump, especially when it is lumping them all as conservative. Ewwww.. Yuck.. Bite your tongue...!!! Still if some protestant group has lumped marriage being a lifelong commitment to one man & one women.. into the meaning of Purity, I still am of the opinion it is someone who has added to the meaning or Purity in a way the Bible never outlined. It may have talked about marriage, and It may have talked about purity, it may have talked about having purity of heart when entering into a marraige.. but it didn't lump life long commitments, or sex without benefit of marriage into that.
          Last edited by moosetracker; 09-23-2013, 04:17 AM.

        • JoeBob
          JoeBob commented
          Editing a comment
          KDD: I've married 3 Catholics: Confession, Penance, Absolution.


          That was never the plan, but it can happen. The details are too personal to get into on an open forum; I probably shouldn't have told that.

          January 3rd will be our 18th anniversary.

        • NJCubScouter
          NJCubScouter commented
          Editing a comment
          KDD, unless I missed something, I don't think JoeBob said he was Catholic. He said his three wives have been Catholic. One can be married to a Catholic without being one, or even being Christian, as I personally can attest. (Just one for me though, and 32 years and counting.)

      • #57
        Well the Pure of heart, mind, word and deed, sounds familure, put the addition part is definitely just people making their own rules.

        The highlighted statement is funny though.. So, that means no one who has divorced (even if not remarried), nor a widower starts a new relationship (regardless of if they marry or not.), nor anyone whose relationship turns physical before they wed (even if it is their one and only).. That rules out pretty much everyone on the planet, except maybe those whose looks or personality causes them never to find love.
        Last edited by moosetracker; 09-22-2013, 05:04 PM.

        Comment


        • JoeBob
          JoeBob commented
          Editing a comment
          Three wives in Heaven? Sounds Mormon to me.
          Not sure I'm gonna like it when they all gang up on me.
          Hey, this IS Heaven, right?!?

        • MattR
          MattR commented
          Editing a comment
          Careful what you ask for JoeBob You'd also get three mother-in-laws, or nine.

        • JoeBob
          JoeBob commented
          Editing a comment
          Not wishing for it. Just acknowledging that my time in the afterlife may not be in Heaven....

      • #58
        Hey, this lifelong isn't my belief.. Mine is "Until death do us part." (Not that I have husband #2 lined up for if my husband kick off in soon..).. Perhaps you guys do have it interpreted correctly.. But to me a Lifelong commitment by me, means my life, not your life..

        But, I do not quite get the conservatives anyway.. And I don't think I truly believe it, but it is a comfort to me..to think I will again meet my loved ones when I die.. Aside from meeting them on the other side though, I have no imagination as to what we would do after the hugging is over with.. Perhaps my mother might tell me of a few things she thought I did wrong and could have done better.. After that we all fade away into nothingness.. Perhaps I would be called back to be a door greeter to those who lived beyond me, until there is no one on earth who knows me.. Now if I had married a total SOB or an abusive father, I would hope God would not include him on my "loved ones" list, for them to either greet me, or me to have to come out of total oblivion to have to greet them.

        So I will concede that that you might have the right of it..

        Comment


        • #59
          Personally I do not think that viewing marriage as a "lifelong commitment" necessarily means that a divorced person would be excluded from leadership. (And if TL decides to do so, quite frankly, so what? It's not my organization nor is it going to be, so it doesn't bother me.) All religions that I am aware of, and ALMOST all people I have known who have gotten married, also view it as a lifelong commitment, and yet different religions and different people have different perspectives on divorce and what the divorced person should or shouldn't do (or be allowed to do) after the divorce. It does depend on the circumstances. If someone applied to be a leader and I know he has been divorced several times and the cause of the divorce was that he cheated on each wife with the next wife, and this is known throughout the community, I would probably conclude that he is not a good role model for the values expressed in the Scout Oath and Law. (Does that language sound familiar?) But if a guy has been divorced once because he and his wife just couldn't get along after years of trying, or if he was faithful and she cheated on him, I wouldn't have a problem. That assumes that I even know the details of the person's personal life, which normally I prefer not to.

          Comment


          • #60
            Well that might be a BSA reason not to consider him a good Leader, because aside from forcing everyone to abide by the conservatives view about homosexuals, you have the freedom to decide what Leaders by the traits your unit considers is or is not a good role model.. But, TLUSA is more tightly defining it to rule out any liberal thinking religions, and those religions that are not Christian or they just do not like.. So you can't go with the viewpoint of looking at the fact all religions view marriage and divorce differently, it has to be their way or the highway..

            But, your right about it not being my organization, so who cares.. We were just guesstimating how large the group would get when your inclusiveness is very ,very limited and restrictive. In that light, how small their net is influenced by the meaning behind not having any physical relations with anyone out of wedlock, and lifelong commitment is part of the equation..

            I do know conservative religions definitely frown on divorce.. Liberal religions are the ones that are more understanding.. Definitely a divorced person is a poor role model.. But, hey if you want to say whatever you are signing here has not meaning what-so-ever.. Everyone is welcome, then I don't understand what the reason was to leave the BSA over this issue.

            Comment


            • dcsimmons
              dcsimmons commented
              Editing a comment
              Moose, they disagree with the decision, they disagree with the trajectory of the BSA, they disagree with you. So, they started their own program. I know it's hard for liberals to comprehend that many folks simply don't agree with the current trajectory of the BSA or the country for that matter. And they'll work to change it. I think I'm smelling a little fear in the air as the liberals realize they are now going to have to lead instead of just complain about needing change. You got it. What are you going to do with it now?
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