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Trail Life confused over who they are?????

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  • Trail Life confused over who they are?????

    Check out this link.....

    Now I am scratching my head thinking what the heck???????????

    Did I miss something or didn't they leave over gay youth being allowed in the organization????

    http://www.npr.org/2013/09/09/220499...uts-of-america

    http://voices.yahoo.com/trail-life-u...-12314071.html


    According to NBC, over a thousand former Scouts and Scouters from 44 states are meeting in Tennessee to herald this new organization. Leaders claim it will be a "Christian" alternative to the BSA but, strangely, will still allow gay members so long as they do not "flaunt" their sexuality. Additionally, despite Trail Life USA's "Christian" roots, it will not "become religious and churchy," says John Stemberger, one of the founders. So Trail Life USA, formed by those angry about the Boy Scouts of America allowing gay youth members, will still allow gays itself and be "Christian" but not "religious or churchy"? Sounds like some marketing kinks still need to be ironed out.


    So I have got to ask how in the world can they partner with the American Heritage Girls...



    Why form a new organization if you are going to allow gay youth, the reason you left, be members????

  • #2
    I responded to this in the other threat where you posted basically the same thing. The short answer is, I think they are being very clever with the words they are using and different media sites and bloggers are interpreting those words differently. I do NOT think this new group will allow an openly gay youth -- in other words a Scout who says "I'm gay" -- to remain a member. They will say he is "flaunting" his sexuality. That is my guess, anyway. Otherwise, they have spent a lot of time and effort (and some money, though we don't know how much) for nothing. I really doubt they have gone through all that for nothing.

    Comment


    • #3
      I wonder exactly what flaunt is???? Two guys holding hands at eventing flags????


      I am completely lost as to why they would make a huge stink over gays in the BSA, run off then form their own new organization that was initially anti gay, to only back pedal and say closeted gays are ok.

      Comment


      • #4
        (Duplicate, fouled-up post deleted. What a mess I made of this. And it's basically just old-fashioned markup language like I've been using for 20 years.)
        Last edited by NJCubScouter; 09-09-2013, 02:52 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
          I wonder exactly what flaunt is???? Two guys holding hands at eventing flags????


          Well, that's the whole problem. "Flaunt" is a word without a single, clear definition. It's in the eye of the beholder. Like I've said (in 2 different threads now), my guess is that Trail Life USA will define "flaunting" as any statement by a young man that he is gay. Or does the young man have to explicitly discuss sexual behavior that he has engaged in, or wants to engage in (which is not the same thing as saying "I'm gay") in order to be "flaunting it"? My guess (there's that word again, and it's a word I always hate to use) is that Trail Life will go with the first definition - don't even say you're gay, or you're out (no pun intended.) On the other hand, I'm assuming (another thing I don't like to do, because you know what happens when you assume) that the BSA's new policy will probably be interpreted to mean that statements that are limited to sexuality (like "I'm gay") are ok but that statements about sex (what little Johnny did last night with Sarah, or Charlie) should prompt at least a "warning" and any repetition followed by expulsion. (Notice my gender-neutral policy here: You can tell us who you are, but we don't want to hear about what you did, regardless of gender.) As for holding hands at evening flags, BD, you may mean it as a joke, but how would we respond to a male youth Venturer and a female youth Venturer holding hands (or whatever else) at a Scouting activity? I have not been involved in Venturing, but I am sure things like this happen now and then. My guess (again) is that this would not be tolerated - if you're going out with each other, do it on your own time and keep the crew out of it. Right? If that's the case, the same should be true for two boys holding hands. The difference, again I'm assuming, is that in Trail Life the two 18-year-olds of opposite gender (that is the starting age for their coed program, apparently) will be told not to do it anymore, while the two of the same gender will be shown the door. In the BSA, on the other hand, under the new policy I would think there would be one warning, followed by expulsion, all around.



          Originally posted by Basementdweller View Post
          I am completely lost as to why they would make a huge stink over gays in the BSA, run off then form their own new organization that was initially anti gay, to only back pedal and say closeted gays are ok.


          Well, "closeted" gay youth (and adults) have ALWAYS been ok, and are still ok, in the BSA, and apparently in Trail Life as well. (There was a quote from Trail Life that suggested that is the case, but I don't know where to look for it again.) And since "closeted" is not 100 percent well-defined (more so than "flaunting" though), I am using it to mean someone who has never "publicly" stated (including telling ANYONE in the troop, in this case) that he is gay. (What about "I think I might be gay?" Is that "open and avowed"? I am not sure how that was handled under the old BSA policy, but it should not be an issue anymore, for youths.) So if we assume that "openly gay" and "closeted" are mutually exclusive and that there's no grey area in between (which is a big assumption), the BSA has always allowed closeted gay people, the change is that openly gay youth will now be permitted as well. But in Trail Life, I think "I'm gay" will still be the ticket out, probably with no "warnings."
          Last edited by NJCubScouter; 09-09-2013, 02:50 PM.

          Comment


          • Basementdweller
            Basementdweller commented
            Editing a comment
            Well our crew was good with hand holding.....but no arm in arm.....That was the crews choice.

            Been there done that with a venture crew.....They thought the camping trip was going to be Mr. B's romantic getaway weekend.....Well when it was clear the adults were going to stay up for the duration they went to bed and never camped as a crew again. I was the second male adult on a 5 night long trip with another crew this summer who had a more liberal PDA policy.....Never mind it was 80 degrees and we were hanging around a campfire....they were cuddling like it was 20 degrees.....No smooching....But I was a bit uncomfortable with it.....Not my crew not my rules.

            I wonder about the witch hunt......BSA gay adults and youth were OK until someone had an ax to grind......I bet that will be the case in TL,,,,

        • #6
          I posted the stuff below on the thread that vanished the other night. It was from the older onmyhonor dot net site. Maybe it will explain things better, or maybe not....

          Outline of Differences between the Boy Scouts of America
          and the new Youth Adventure Program:
          1) The BSA's new policy requires troops to accept "open and avowed homosexuality" among its boys. The new group does not.
          2) The BSA's new policy requires troops to accept boys who express any "sexual preference." The new group does not.
          3) The BSA's new policy appears to require troops to accept transgendered boys whose "sexual preference" is to dress and act out like a girl. The new group does not.
          4) The BSA's new policy also appears to allow girls who subjectively want to act out as boys as their "sexual preference". The new group specifically requires youth members to be "biologically male."
          5) The BSA has no fixed objective standard for what words like "morally straight", "clean" and "reverent" mean. The new group clearly articulates its values and morals.
          6) The heart of the mission statement of the BSA is to "prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes." In contrast, the basis of the new group's ethics, morals, and values come from the Bible and the statement of values which expressly defines those standards.
          7) The BSA has no fixed or objective standard for normative human sexuality or what it means to be "morally straight." The new group is clear that "any sexual activity outside the context of the covenant of marriage between one man and one woman is sinful before God and therefore inconsistent with the values and principles of the program."
          8) The BSA is a non-sectarian organization that has a generic "duty to God." The new organization is "Christ- Centered" in that it requires adult members to subscribe to and abide by a Christian statement of faith and values.
          9) The BSA's decision-making comes through the centralized control of professional paid executives, whose hand-selected delegates vote a certain way in policy change. The new organization, in order to respect the will of local leaders and members, has decentralized control.

          Comment


          • #7
            In reading more articles......The admission of gay youth is not a deal breaker for the people joining.....

            So I wonder why????

            Cross posted with waki

            Don't know if I buy it...

            Last edited by Basementdweller; 09-09-2013, 04:02 PM.

            Comment


            • #8
              I think flaunt to them is our old "Don't ask, Don't Tell".. Which was a problem, because that meant "As long as no one finds out"..

              I got this from a link..
              "Trail Life USA will be inclusive of boys, regardless of religion, race, national origin or socioeconomic status, and accept boys who are experiencing same-sex attractions or gender confusion," a statement from the group says.

              "However, it will not admit youth who are open or avowed about their homosexuality, and it will not admit boys who are not 'biologically male' or boys who wish to dress and act like girls."
              Interesting Trails Life says they welcome all religions, yet specify they are a "Christian" organization. So does that mean if your not Christian, they don't consider you a true religion? Curious what the little 1 next to it's yes is for.. Is it about the Christian/ all religion thing, or is it about those that are unchurched..
              Last edited by moosetracker; 09-09-2013, 04:09 PM.

              Comment


              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                It appears it is an attempt to keep LDS out of leadership. The whole trinity issue has never been a concern of mine so I don't really understand what the problem is.

                Is there validity to their assertations about the new BSA policy ? I don't envision many boys wanting to run around the woods in a tutu.

              • WAKWIB
                WAKWIB commented
                Editing a comment
                moose: Sorry the little one got cut off in all of my copy and pasting.

                [1] Charter partners own and operate local groups, selecting leaders and admitting members as they deem beneficial to their group and within the parameters of the national policy (excerpted from Membership Standards).

                The whole business that I posted here is a cached shot of a page from the old site. I don't think it's part of the new site yet. They just did the change-over during the weekend.
                http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us

            • #9
              I honestly think at this point the gay issue was an excuse for some people to get out of the BSA and start their own organization. I only know of one Scout who is going to be joining this new organization, and that Scout isn't from my unit.

              Comment


              • NeverAnEagle
                NeverAnEagle commented
                Editing a comment
                We have a whole troop joining Trail Life here. The troop was pretty closed to begin with, so I guessing you just hit the nail on the head, they gay vote was just an excuse to leave.

                This particular troop only allowed boys in if they were Catholic and attended the local Catholic school. If your parents couldn't afford to send you to the Catholic school, you family wasn't "Catholic Enough" to join the troop. Their former SM was a good friend of mine and was recently kicked out of the troop & KofC because he wasn't "Catholic Enough" either. (This was a man who double-fisted his rosary's' and attended Mass multiple times a week.) The issue was that he was dating a woman who was open about not being christian and had no intention of converting; they say it as "poor judgement" on his part.

                I can only hope Trail Life will go the way of the Royal Rangers.

              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                Ok so go the way of the royal rangers???? Heard of them, never seen one in person???? so whats the deal

              • NeverAnEagle
                NeverAnEagle commented
                Editing a comment
                My Aunt's favorite prayer is: "May God bless all my enemies with a limp; that way they will be easily identified and avoided. And if necessary I'll be able to out-run them. AMEN."

                I hope Trail Life becomes a private christian club that no one has ever heard of. There is one Royal Ranger group here and another that I know of 2 counties north. I have met a Royal Ranger, and like the kids from AWANA, he wanted to be a boy scout, but his parents religious views prevented it. I think that like Royal Rangers, Trail Life may become a holding tank for the wing-nuts; which gives us the opportunity to identify and avoid them.

            • #10
              I think this boils down to adult egos.....

              Comment


              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                Hmmm, thinking guys who are a live and had statues made of themselves to put at the summit.....

                The donors I get..

                The scouters not so much.

              • qwazse
                qwazse commented
                Editing a comment
                Got a link? (Yeah, I know, they disappear almost as fast as you read them,)

                It's actually a really good idea. My chuch's young adult ministry has an outdoor component, and it seems to be one of the factors enabling college graduates to stick with us, or folks from out of town to find us. But with us, there is no upper age limit.

              • WAKWIB
                WAKWIB commented
                Editing a comment
                The link to the home page is:

                http://www.traillifeusa.com

                You will find a chart of the different age programs here:

                http://www.traillifeusa.com/resources

                They have not published most details yet, but is should be coming out in the weeks ahead.

            • #11
              I wonder what the membership fee is going to be.....

              Let me see 18 paid staff members say 10k scouts to start with....main guy knocking down 100k, Thinking pay roll of a million bucks....

              With out donations. That is 100 bucks a head, just to make payroll.

              Comment


              • King Ding Dong
                King Ding Dong commented
                Editing a comment
                28% mechandise, 33% registration fees, 24% program support (whatever that means)

                I guess they plan on selling a whole lot of t-shirts.

                http://www.traillifeusa.com/wp-conte...wnLoad_PBP.pdf

              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                Thinking corporate donations is what program support means or it could mean FOTL Friends of Trail Life campaign.

              • WAKWIB
                WAKWIB commented
                Editing a comment
                Membership fee for adults and youth= $26/year

            • #12
              I see some more nifty websites, cool looking logo's, T-shirts, a delay on getting any kind of handbook out (is the old Baden Powel stuff public domain) and a lot of ambiguity. I'd lilove to be a fly on the wall for liablity protection discussions. But other groups have dealt with it. I think if they do it right it will be expensive.

              If my boys were interested (1 Star, 1 1st Class) would their "credits" transfer over or would they have to start from scratch?

              Comment


              • duckfoot
                duckfoot commented
                Editing a comment
                They say that the current scouts advancement would carry over to their program. I doubt the youth will get credit for being a trailman when they come back.

              • qwazse
                qwazse commented
                Editing a comment
                This is kinda like figuring out how to handle exchange students.
                If a boy transfers to my troop from whatever, and it matters to him, and our SPL/PLs can see he has the skills, I'd encourage SM and committee to sign him off as far as 1st Class.
                We'd have to negotiate specialty awards (like MB's or equivalent) one at a time. If the content matches, count it.
                If he completely forgot what EDGE means, but can teach scout skills, I'd definitely assign Life Rank!

                A lot of this might eventually involve sitting down with the boy and comparing lists. It might involve ignoring any smoke some lackey from national might blow in our face. But from where I sit, a first class scout, deserves the patch. doesn't matter what side of the border he lands on.

                Bottom line: I'm not gonna let the turbulence of our time keep from shining a light on accomplished boys.

            • #13
              Yah, hmmm...

              I don't reckon they're confused. It's da old BSA don't ask, don't tell policy for youth, coupled with a Christian mission for both youth and adults. I think Sentinel947 has da right of it. Trail Life is tappin' into a population that has been disenchanted with da BSA for a variety of reasons, and the membership change was just the last straw. If they build a good program, maybe a bit less G2SS crazed, maybe a bit less paperwork, maybe a bit more outdoor sportsman focused than da BSA, they could become a bigger draw. Just depends.

              Close as I can tell da initial group was pretty evangelical, but as they've grown it's become more moderate. Might eventually offer da BSA some competition in many areas in da country.

              I'd lilove to be a fly on the wall for liablity protection discussions.

              Yah, not sure why yeh think this is goin' to be that hard, Tampa Turtle. Liability insurance is a commodity item, and da general rules for the game are pretty well known. I don't know who's workin' with 'em, but they seem to have da resources and expertise to handle that sort of routine stuff without a problem.

              Beavah

              Comment


              • WAKWIB
                WAKWIB commented
                Editing a comment
                They don't appear to be confused at all. They have a clear and publicly available membership policy, which seems to be pretty inclusive in regards to youth.

                Their Statement of Faith which is signed off on by adult leaders and the CO is clear and precise, as opposed to a vague Declaration of Religious Principle. Yes, that Statement is firmly Christian in the sense of that word as it is understood by catholics, protestants, and evangelicals.

                Their program was "stormed and formed" by a group of about 50 experienced Scouters with a strong sense of traditional Scouting. I heard in an interview that these folks worked nearly every night since March via virtual campfire on this project. It's not going to be another Awana or Royal Rangers.

                Organizationally, they will be very lean and focused on direct service to their members and units.

                They have generated a very energized and excited base of potential members.

                It is clear that, for a particular market, this could be a very significant and successful youth-serving organization.

            • #14
              Picked up this little gem from their website

              biologically male children under the age of 18.

              Comment


              • dcsimmons
                dcsimmons commented
                Editing a comment
                Well, at the risk of reigniting the entire debate, the BSA policy says:
                "no youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or preference alone"

                And the Wikipedia page defines sexual orientation to include:
                'According to the American Psychological Association, sexual orientation "also refers to a person's sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors, and membership in a community of others who share those attractions'

                So, if the APA definition of sexual orientation includes a "person's sense of identity" and the BSA says no youth may be denied based on the sexual orientation, the link isn't too awful far of a reach.

              • qwazse
                qwazse commented
                Editing a comment
                Sorry, venturers, looks like your stuck with the BSA freak show.

              • WAKWIB
                WAKWIB commented
                Editing a comment
                Trail Life is developing a 18-25 coed program, so if any "former venturers" want to let their freak-flag fly in a different camp, it will be available.

            • #15
              I suppose the real question is why does anybody here care? The vote was taken, the folks at OMH followed through on their promise to leave and start a new organization. People look to be going with them. More than a few voices on this board said in effect, "don't let the door hit you on the way out" and "we're better off without them." Done and done. We'll see where the chips fall.

              Comment

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