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'Rogue' UK Girl Guide troop won't use new non-religious promise, excludes new leader

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  • #46
    Here's my first reply to you in this thread:
    Seriously though Merlyn here is where we split.. Though I would be fine with some change to include atheists, I would expect Atheists to come in respecting the beliefs of others.. Probably if this happened to BSA, then I would end up trying to appease by allowing both the old & new oaths to be done, and you can pick the one you like, and stay silent and RESPECTFUL while the other group says the one they like..

    What's that got to do with this story? The leaders of this GG troop are the ones not respecting the atheist.

    And if you're referring to "Why don't they start their own organization instead of trying to change the one they're in?", your sarcasm meter is busted.
    Like I've said before, the leaders of this GG troop aren't allowing an atheist to take the official promise. But for some reason, you use it as another excuse to slam atheists who aren't the right sort to be in scouting. But the atheist in this situation isn't doing anything the least bit wrong or disrespectful; the GG troop leaders are.

    And your replies make it look more and more like you're frothing at the mouth and about to burst a vein in your head. You've gone from whining to raving.

    What do you call a man who demands that no one read what he writes and infer logical conclusions about them, because their LIES

    "They're LIES", not "their LIES". And sorry, no, whenever you or anyone else tries to tell me what I feel, and you get it wrong, I'll call you a liar because that's what you're doing. You aren't inferring a logical conclusion because I never wrote nor implied that respecting the beliefs of atheists required disrespecting the beliefs of non-atheists. That's something you made up out of whole cloth.

    And that's also why I wrote this earlier in response to you:
    I am not lying about you. I am reading what you wrote and interpreting it due to what I read, and responding to what I read.

    Then you should have no problem coming up with an exact quote from me that means "Why do you feel in order to respect the beliefs of atheists, you need to disrespect the beliefs of non-atheists?" But instead you just re-read what I wrote and make up how you think I "feel" due to your own prejudices.
    See? You need to quote something I wrote to support your assertion. But instead, in response to the above, you quoted YOURSELF:
    Ok Merlyn , If asking you an open ended question that is aimed at you opening up and explaining to me why I am picking up a vibe from you I have never sensed from you before.. The same comment also included this "Actually I did not know that we disagreed That much, I though my disagreement was being for your cause with reservations, I had though you agreed with finding ways to respect each groups beliefs.. I guess I was wrong, you now sound like you are one who first purpose is to get in, and whose second purpose is to pull apart what some people find a core purpose of their BSA experience.. ".
    Look, quoting yourself does NOTHING to justify your lie about me. Above, you're again assuming your OWN conclusion, yet you've not quoted ANYTHING I've written. Just more of your own blather.

    Comment


    • #47
      Hey Merlyn,

      I'm still trying to figure out what you're trying to accomplish. Do you think you are convincing anyone to come over to your point of view?

      Comment


      • #48
        Which point of view? I have a lot.

        As for the article, my view is that the atheist leader should be able to take the official promise. Who disagrees with that?

        Comment


        • #49
          Frothing at the mouth!.. I am laughing in hysterics at your childish behavior, and having a great time.. And again your inability to see in yourself exactly what you accuse others of (or just your feeling of entitlement to do unto others what you are insulted by anyone doing right back to you.. I am having real fun, because, with every post you write you paint yourself more into a corner, and continually loose more & more ground..

          Hmmm… Probably if this happened to BSA, then I would end up trying to appease by allowing both the old & new oaths to be done, and you can pick the one you like, and stay silent and RESPECTFUL while the other group says the one they like..

          Again only seeing the part of phrase you wish to see, and ignoring the rest of the paragraph???? Then spinning your own interpretation that I was stating only atheist needed to be respectful?? I also don’t see where I said they needed to respect ME, I said they needed to respect EACH OTHER…

          Reposting the GG PR statement still doesn’t prove a thing, except that PR statements put a smiley face on a history of complaints and bickering until they attempted to put an end to it with this decision.. I don’t have to take it up with them. I am not in that organization.. Doesn’t keep me from looking it and making my own decision on if it was good or not.. I can do that with policies that other state governments are making where I don’t live, such as I don’t think Texas has the right to attempt to create a state religion while outlawing someone else’s religious beliefs.. YOU want to impeach them, and you don’t live there!!!.. I think my stating my opinion of it, is not as bad as you thinking you have the right to go to TEXAS and vote them out of office, even when you don’t live there.

          Merlyn : As for the article, my view is that the atheist leader should be able to take the official promise. Who disagrees with that?

          Not me.. I said she should be able to take the official promise, and you called me disrespectful and a hypocrite to have that opinion.. (True, I also backed the other group.. shame on me)

          Last edited by moosetracker; 08-26-2013, 09:50 AM. Reason: Editing as copy from word to here messed up formating.

          Comment


          • #50
            Not me.. I said she should be able to take the official promise, and you called me disrespectful and a hypocrite to have that opinion..

            No, I didn't. Here's where I called you disrespectful and a hypocrite:
            --------------------
            But there is the faction of atheist who want to enter, then kill the religious tradition of BSA, by stamping out any religious aspect.. That group I am NOT welcoming, because they will NOT be respectful of others.

            Just like you're not being respectful of atheists right now. Hypocrite.
            --------------------

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            • #51
              OK, are we ready for the fire hose yet? I mean I left this thread for just a few hours and...wow!

              FWIW, Moosetracker is female, not that that makes any difference. Moosetracker, did you ever experience the Merlyn/Evmori exchanges?

              I suggest a high-calorie, high-carb lunch for everyone. And then sleep it off.

              Comment


              • Scouter99
                Scouter99 commented
                Editing a comment
                On an unrelated note, I tried to send you a PM but the forum says no go. If you PM me first do you think I'd be able to reply?

              • moosetracker
                moosetracker commented
                Editing a comment
                I don't know if it was Evmori that Merlyn wrestled with.. But, I have witnessed him many times when he has a bone between his teeth.. I'm just enjoying the battle.. I figure at sometime you guys will cut us off, or I will tire of it.. That might be soon. I had today off, but have to return to work tomorrow, so probably Merlyn will have to go find another bone to chew on.

              • packsaddle
                packsaddle commented
                Editing a comment
                Scouter99, it isn't working for me either. Hasn't, really, since the new system arrived.

            • #52
              merlyn as you may have gathered from my postings I am not a Christian fundamentalist nor do i approve of a particular theology being taught in scouting.
              there is a foundation of honor in even in atheism. for i hold that an atheist can have morals, ethics, a measure of right and wrong.
              So even though i share your point of view on the issue I have to say that I disapprove of the method and the message that you are insisting upon.

              Comment


              • #53
                Gosh Merlyn! Please figure out why you think I'm disrespectful and a Hypocrite, and focus!! Your weaving and dodging to try to figure out what I said that makes me a hypocrite and disrespectful in your eyes, is making me dizzy!!!


                Yes, that statement is correct and truthful the big word in that statement being FRACTION. You can't say I am disrespectful for stating the truth. I am also not a hypocrite for stating the truth (Please re-read the definition).. Had I said all atheists, and created a prejudicial statement about the whole group, then I might be called disrespectful, but still not a hypocrite.. And as in typical Merlyn fashion, again, you missed the first sentence in that paragraph.. To only cherry pick what you wanted to.

                The first sentence was :
                If this [being part of the group] was the only reason behind atheists wanting to join, I would be behind them also 100%.. For all atheists who this is their only agenda, I am behind them 100%..

                Sorry, again, READ the whole post, and don't cherry pick to twist my words to insinuate different meaning out of what I wrote..

                I have atheist friends who have told me they are embarrassed by this radical fringe, because it paints them in a bad light.. Hurting, not helping them gain respect within their communities. Would you like to call them disrespectful and a hypocrite of themselves??

                Sorry, I don't like people who want to join a group simply to create a hostile environment for all.. Doesn't matter which group is creating the hostile environment.. I am alone on this belief.. When ever the forum lights up over someone creating a hostile environment, the main response is either remove them from the unit, or remove yourself from the unit, depending on if the person has the weight to remove the hostile person or not.. If you have a cancer, rip it out.. better yet take preventative action so you never get the problem. If possible be pro-active rather then retro-active.

                That makes me consistent in what I care about and believe in.. Which is the opposite of hypocritical, and makes me equally respectful to ALL groups..

                Comment


                • #54
                  Yep, it does remind of Ed and M. Is it time for that "pie" we used to speak about? Or would it just get thrown in faces?

                  Comment


                  • packsaddle
                    packsaddle commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I think I felt a chunk flop onto my forehead already. At least I HOPE that was pie.

                • #55
                  Pack recall you mentioning the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster a while back, I ran across the term somewhere else recently and decided to goggle it. Wow what scream. Seems the the perfect religion for any atheist who has issues with the BSA DRP. Friday is their Holy Day so it has the added benefit of solving conflicts on campouts. Lots of craft opportunities for the Cubs as well.

                  Comment


                  • packsaddle
                    packsaddle commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yeah, I remember mentioning it but I can't remember the context. I'm not the first to note that the FSM qualifies under BSA 'guidelines'. Me, if I had to choose between that and that mythical 'rock' that some scout executive noted that was also officially BSA-approved, I'd always side with the edible thing. H'mmm maybe that was spaghetti and not pie.....

                  • st0ut717
                    st0ut717 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Pack would Bushido count?

                • #56
                  Why did I have this nagging feeling that while no one but, Joe Bob said a peep.. I felt there were people just watching for the entertainment.. It's sort of like a tennis match huh?? "You started it!" "No, you started it".. "No you did".. "Well you were meaner".. I, think you should wait a little while, after all we still need the famous line "I'm gonna tell my Mommy".. (Or does my typing it right now, count?)

                  Hi Guys.. Having fun in the balcony seats..

                  Comment


                  • #57
                    Gosh Merlyn! Please figure out why you think I'm disrespectful and a Hypocrite,

                    I've already told you a number of times; you're the one who needs to figure things out.

                    Yes, that statement is correct and truthful the big word in that statement being FRACTION.

                    And you keep pointing out that fraction that you just can't stand. Over and over again.


                    Sorry, again, READ the whole post, and don't cherry pick to twist my words to insinuate different meaning out of what I wrote..

                    I'm saying you repeatedly point out atheists that you don't want in the BSA. Over and over and over and over. I don't care that you would allow some fraction of the "right kind" of atheists.

                    I have atheist friends

                    "Some of my best friends are atheists."

                    Sorry, I don't like people who want to join a group simply to create a hostile environment for all.

                    I've never heard of any atheist who wants to do this with the BSA or any other group. Paul Trout didn't want to do that. The Randall twins didn't. Or Mark Welsh, Remington Powell, Brad Seabourn, or Darrell Lambert.

                    Comment


                    • #58
                      Sorry, it's the majority I would welcome and the fraction I would want to make sure the BSA planned for how to deal with in a pro-active manner.. I take it the names you spouted out are people who were in units and were removed due to their beliefs.. I am sure they all were great people, and definitely did not want to go in to cause waves.. You can not sneak into a birthday party or a wedding to enjoy the activities if your plan is to come in guns blazing.. You would need to feel confident that you will not melt if you hear a prayer or worse yet, need to recite an oath with the word God in it.

                      Now you could have spent all this time explaining to me, what the difference is between removing religious symbols from any public place, yet these very same people would have no interest to join BSA... Or if these same people did join, why would consider entering BSA a place that religious tradition would be tolerated..

                      If you can only rant and rave about my perception, but have no way to educate me as to why my perception is wrong.. Well, I have to stay with my perceptions.. Your choice.. Try to persuade someone to a different viewpoint positively, or rant and rave and build up the reservation they already have about your cause..

                      It's lucky I personally know a lot of atheists that have built my faith in the majority of your people being very wonderful decent and moral is strong, because if I didn't have that you just spent a day trying to persuade me that I should just be thankful, you group is denied entry.. And as I stated before, they agree with my opinion of their radical fringe element of their group, and understand why people are turned off by their actions.. So you need to also educate other atheists on why this group is not a detriment to their reputation..

                      Comment


                      • #59
                        Sorry, it's the majority I would welcome and the fraction I would want to make sure the BSA planned for how to deal with in a pro-active manner.

                        Uh, that doesn't contradict what I wrote. I pointed out you keep bringing up atheists you don't want in the BSA, even in this thread, which is about an atheist being excluded by people who refuse to allow her to take the official promise. I haven't said one way or the other about which group of atheists is larger.

                        Now you could have spent all this time explaining to me, what the difference is between removing religious symbols from any public place,

                        "Any public place" includes e.g. churches. I haven't heard of any atheist groups wanted to remove religious symbols from privately owned buildings. Public property like city hall, yes.

                        yet these very same people would have no interest to join BSA...

                        So if they have no interest in joining, why do you keep bringing up "people who want to join a group simply to create a hostile environment for all"?
                        What people are you talking about?

                        Or if these same people did join, why would consider entering BSA a place that religious tradition would be tolerated..

                        I can't really parse that, but if you're referring to people who want to remove "religious symbols from any public place", like I said, I don't know of any.
                        Again, what people are you talking about? You haven't pointed to any specific people.

                        If you can only rant and rave about my perception, but have no way to educate me as to why my perception is wrong.

                        Of what? As far as I can tell, you've been ranting and raving about straw men atheists.
                        The atheist in the Girl Guide story isn't trying to remove anything, she just wants to take the official promise
                        The atheists in the Santa Monica story from your 2011 link wanted equal access to a public forum. For the previous 60 years, it was only open to a religious group for an annual nativity display. The city council could clearly see that they couldn't keep doing that, so they created a lottery system.

                        Comment


                        • #60
                          Deleted for not being Scout like. Barry
                          Last edited by Eagledad; 08-27-2013, 08:52 AM. Reason: Deleted for not acting scout like. Barry

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