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South Carolina Scout Executive Resigns

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  • #16
    I read his letter. He disagrees and he's moving on. That's all. I wish him the best.

    If there's one thing that has come out of this whole episode it's that reasoning based on emotion defies logic. This is entirely an emotional issue. People either dislike gays, don't care about gays, or don't mind gays. How each of us got where we are is personal. For many it's their religion. For many it's who they know. We can't analyze it or, especially, convince anyone to change their mind. It is what it is. We keep seeing the same arguments over and over again and nobody is changing. Words won't do it. The only way people will change is if they meet people that contradict their view of things.

    Hopefully we can be courteous.

    Comment


    • MattR
      MattR commented
      Editing a comment
      Eagledad, I never said emotions were bad or that I didn't have them. They just are. I absolutely believe what you said. There are no words I can write that will change your mind. It's who you are and I respect it. I don't even want to try.

      And you are just like everyone that voted. I can't change anyone's opinion on this by writing words on this forum. Nobody can change anyone's opinion on this. To each person, their views are quite logical and make all the sense in the world. But your logic doesn't mean anything to me and vice versa. That's why I'm saying it's an emotional issue. I'm not looking down on anyone. You're still invited to my campfire.

    • Eagledad
      Eagledad commented
      Editing a comment
      Ahh, I see what you saying, makes sense. I didn't feel you were being condesending to anyone on the forum at all, quite the opposite. But I don't see that I had a choice, logical or emotional. In fact I feel the folks who are against the policy change because of their religous doctrine are the least emotional on the subject.

    • MattR
      MattR commented
      Editing a comment
      Yea, the word emotional was confusing. How about: it's a deep down thing. You're right that people have gone off the handle. The odd thing is the discussion in the other thread about the threshold for being an Eagle scout is more useful, more applicable to scouting, just as abstract and difficult to nail down, yet much more calm. If the general population knew we spent a lot more time figuring out stuff like that there wouldn't be this huge split over the BSA.

      Anyway, Eagledad, I hope you stick around.

  • #17
    Originally posted by ghjim View Post
    So I am going to use this thread to ask a question; I keep hearing that the survey showed that more than 60% of the membership wanted no change. Yet the council vote indicated the reverse (which is consistent with the report of the first informal survey according to Lodge489 whom I have quoted several times).

    What a I missing here?
    I've had the same thought. My take on it is that the BSA is NOT a Representative Republic......

    Reading this thread, I'm reminded of a quote. I'm not sure who said it first.....
    He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp posts--for support rather than for illumination

    Comment


    • #18
      The reality is this man has made a decision to leave. The reasons are his to know and it's his peace to make. A number of folks who said they would leave if the resolution passed are also leaving. The reasons are theirs to know and it's their peace to make. Many folks that said they'd have to consider what's next are considering what's next. The reasons are theirs to know and their peace to make. At this point the onus is on the supporters of the resolution and those who choose to stay, regardless of their feelings, to step up and recruit to fill in the void. I would encourage those folks to stop attacking men like this fellow and get to work.

      Comment


      • #19
        dcsimmons, good point. I might add that, in addition to our 'one-hour-per-week', our financial contributions would be very welcome just about now.

        Comment


        • #20
          Well if the Three 'G's were God, Gays, and Girls; we're running out of issues.

          The Gay scouts are coming (out of the closet). Which is fine by me. Gay leaders would kill Scouting for straight parents.

          Many Holier Than Thou Christian churches are dropping their CO support for troops in their facilities, which is where Scouting had fled to when the schools refused to support us because we required a religious belief and asked gays to be discreet. So God is probably being drummed out of Scouting next.

          And the Girls have already Ventured in.

          What are we gonna fight over next year?
          Kum ba yah competitions?

          Comment


        • #21
          Originally posted by JoeBob View Post
          ...and asked gays to be discreet.
          OK, this keeps bugging me. The BSA through it's actions was not asking gays to be discreet. It was saying: "If we find out, you are gone" (unless that is how you define "being discreet"). That was how it went down in the Dale case, the recent one with the lesbian Tiger Den leader, and many others. And it's dishonest to pretend otherwise.

          Comment


          • #22
            Originally posted by moosetracker View Post
            Yes, but they will except single parent and divorced Scout leaders, they see no problem with their morals keeping them from being good role models.. So, no my analogy is not flawed.. And it's been a few months, but yes I did read the survey.. There were things the conservatives pulled from it ignoring all else, and things liberals pulled from it.. Perhaps though my council data is wrong, that I got from my Council executives.
            This is my favorite ridiculously flawed argument the liberal sheep like to throw around. Well they accept all kinds of people who commit sin...divorcees, single mothers, people who have committed adultery. What you don't understand are these left wing liberal homosexual activists don't think they are committing sin. They don't think they are doing anything wrong. They don't want to be part of the organization. They want affirmation and confirmation from the organization that what they are doing is perfectly normal and acceptable. There is a big difference between committing a sin and seeking forgiveness and not acknowledging what you are doing is sinful.

            Comment


            • moosetracker
              moosetracker commented
              Editing a comment
              Who says anything about any single parent mother seeking forgiveness, or any of the other sinners, or that they stop being adulterers before becoming a scout leader.. Many single mothers would rip you a new one should you even suggest their child out of wedlock was a sin.. We may even have a few who intentionally got pregnant for extra welfare aid.. What about the countless scout leaders who are currently living out of wedlock with their partner? Isn't this the same continuing sinful behavior? Does BSA ask these sinners if they have stopped their sinful way and dropped down on their knees and sought forgiveness, and can promise never ever to be a sinner again?.. No they do not..

              So if the adultery commits a sin every week, but is not fooling around in the scout closet at the scout meeting, his is not currently a sinner?? He is repentant and forgive between those 18 hours between one rendezvous and the next (I don't know by whom), but a homosexual is a sinning homosexual all the day long?

              You are right, they want to be treated like everyone else. Like anyone living unwed with their heterosexual partner, if that is what they are doing. Like every other married couple, if they are married... I understand that and I respect that.. They are not pulling any wool over my eyes.. I agree that that is how they should be treated.. Do they feel the need confirmation and affirmation from the BSA in particular.. No. They just expect BSA to treat them as they do all sinners, because in one form or another we all are sinners.

            • ThomasJefferson
              ThomasJefferson commented
              Editing a comment
              Please quote for us where Jesus said you should be self-righteous and judgmental when sinners refuse to acknowledge their sin. Oh wait, that's right. He said you should be quiet and pay attention to your own problems and leave other people alone. "The log in your own eye" and that kind of thing.

              Why do Christians fail so miserably at being good Christians such that we atheists are NICER THAN YOU?!?!?

          • #23
            Originally posted by aj373ku View Post
            Originally posted by moosetracker View Post
            Yes, but they will except single parent and divorced Scout leaders, they see no problem with their morals keeping them from being good role models.. So, no my analogy is not flawed.. And it's been a few months, but yes I did read the survey.. There were things the conservatives pulled from it ignoring all else, and things liberals pulled from it.. Perhaps though my council data is wrong, that I got from my Council executives.
            This is my favorite ridiculously flawed argument the liberal sheep like to throw around. Well they accept all kinds of people who commit sin...divorcees, single mothers, people who have committed adultery. What you don't understand are these left wing liberal homosexual activists don't think they are committing sin. They don't think they are doing anything wrong. They don't want to be part of the organization. They want affirmation and confirmation from the organization that what they are doing is perfectly normal and acceptable. There is a big difference between committing a sin and seeking forgiveness and not acknowledging what you are doing is sinful.
            Seriously? I have news for you, most people don't think divorce is a sin, nor being a single parent. So your argument is ridiculously flawed. You conservative sheep you* (do we have to throw insults around? Can't we assume everyone are decent moral and thoughtful people that we happen disagree with?).

            *To be clear, this is irony, not sarcasm (hey, I'm working on it).

            Comment


            • #24
              Yeah what Rick said..!! How can you say all our divorced people and single parents have sought forgiveness, their belief system may be that their superior authority could care less, and who are you to judge them that they need forgiveness?? That is your religion, not theirs..

              Also who is tossing out those unmarried couples living in sin (according to you)?? As long as they are doing it in the Scout closet during a scout meeting all is forgiven by your God between 8am and 9pm when they return home to sin again, yet this is not true of the homosexual sinner? How about the scoutmaster who is currently committing adultery, as long as it isn't during scout night he is allowed forgiveness while not in the act, but the homosexual sinner is not??

              I know exactly what the homosexuals are asking for, to be treated like every other sinner in this world, because like it or not, we all are sinners, and all of us commit sins without even knowing it, or caring.. Especially a sin according to someone else who is judging our sins, based on other peoples belief systems.. I eat meat on Friday I don't see it as a sin.. Is everything you eat Kosher? Is everyone following the Amish customs, how dare you drive a car or talk on a phone !!!

              They don't need your blessing, just treat them as fairly as any other person who is not of your religion and therefore do not follow your religious customs.. I respect them in their pursuit to be treated fairly..

              Comment


              • packsaddle
                packsaddle commented
                Editing a comment
                I can answer with two words: First Amendment.

              • ThomasJefferson
                ThomasJefferson commented
                Editing a comment
                Why is it acceptable for conservative activists to attack the beliefs of non-Christian? Why is it acceptable for conservatives to brand those with different moral convictions as bigots and hate mongers?

                After all, you are the only ones with a religious belief that there is a holy injunction against doing so to others, and the only ones living under "Treat others as you would want to be treated." And yet you are not doing that.

                And when you don't get your way? OMG! Where is my victim card! It is time to play the victim even though I have oppressed and dominated the rest of the planet for nearly 1500 years.

              • moosetracker
                moosetracker commented
                Editing a comment
                aj373ku - Why aren't you a protected special interest? Because your the bullies.. We don't protect the bullies.. I agree with ThomaJefferson you group has run around for years with this superior holier then thou attitude. You are all upset and feeling victimize because someone now is standing up to you and forcing you to accept treating others fairly.. Sucks to be treated fairly doesn't it? Imagine the feeling of those who have been treated unfairly by you and your kind over the years.

            • #25
              Originally posted by Rick_in_CA View Post
              Originally posted by aj373ku View Post
              Originally posted by moosetracker View Post
              Yes, but they will except single parent and divorced Scout leaders, they see no problem with their morals keeping them from being good role models.. So, no my analogy is not flawed.. And it's been a few months, but yes I did read the survey.. There were things the conservatives pulled from it ignoring all else, and things liberals pulled from it.. Perhaps though my council data is wrong, that I got from my Council executives.
              This is my favorite ridiculously flawed argument the liberal sheep like to throw around. Well they accept all kinds of people who commit sin...divorcees, single mothers, people who have committed adultery. What you don't understand are these left wing liberal homosexual activists don't think they are committing sin. They don't think they are doing anything wrong. They don't want to be part of the organization. They want affirmation and confirmation from the organization that what they are doing is perfectly normal and acceptable. There is a big difference between committing a sin and seeking forgiveness and not acknowledging what you are doing is sinful.
              Seriously? I have news for you, most people don't think divorce is a sin, nor being a single parent. So your argument is ridiculously flawed. You conservative sheep you* (do we have to throw insults around? Can't we assume everyone are decent moral and thoughtful people that we happen disagree with?).

              *To be clear, this is irony, not sarcasm (hey, I'm working on it).
              I have news for you.....That's the problem. People today, especially the younger generation, don't believe anything is sinful. It is all about me, me, me. If it feels good do it because there are no consequences is the moral code of the current generation and now the BSA. This country and our society is in big trouble because of it. We have an entire generation of kids being raised without a moral compass. They're being raised to believe there is no God, no consequences, no responsibility for their actions and everything is acceptable as long as it feels good. When you believe in nothing, stand for nothing, you have nothing.

              Comment


              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                hmmmm

                Sounds sorta like wicca "Do as you will but harm no one"

              • packsaddle
                packsaddle commented
                Editing a comment
                You're kind of late to this game. That complaint about young people has been made for thousands of years. If your logic is valid then we must be far worse off today than they were in, say, 300 BCE.....not!

            • #26
              Ok, aj373 we got your message... You must be getting the error when posting I was getting even though my messages went through so I have now one comment and one post both pretty much the same, but redone because I lost my first post.

              The problem aj373ku is that awful diversity thing, in which people can stand for something, but what they stand for is not in alignment for what you stand for.. If they were not standing for anything, then you would have nothing in opposition to your belief system and wouldn't be all riled up about changes being made in society today because of it.. Problem is other people have a moral compass that is not pointing in the same direction as yours, and are standing up to defend it..

              Now we can argue who is pointed north and who is pointed east / west or south, but we will get no where in that debate.. I definitely see yours as pointed either east or west, because it is a good way, yet gets all mucked up in the weeds when trying to force others with different yet equally good values to be constricted and forced to follow your way as if your way is the only possible path, when it is just an interpretation and a possible path out of a multitude of very good paths to take..

              I suppose though in your opinion everyone not following your one and only path is probably to you pointed south, because you can not see any other path.. Therefore to you diversity is a sin.. All other religions that aren't yours should be dissolved, federal laws should be set to only follow your one true religion and everyone who doesn't attend your church every Sunday should be put in jail for breaking the law..

              Comment


              • aj373ku
                aj373ku commented
                Editing a comment
                Yeah, I keep getting a message when I post that the comment field is blank. So I keep clicking post and nothing happens. I refresh the forum and my comment has been posted five times!

                You don't get it. I am not trying to force my opinion or religion on anyone! The BSA is a private organization. Membership is voluntary. It is the liberal homosexual activists who have been attacking the BSA for years who are forcing an agenda. They are the ones trying to force their morally bankrupt agenda on the rest of us! That is why I belong to the BSA. Because it is an organization that shares my morals and beliefs (at least they used to). Diversity is a good thing. There can be a hundred different groups that have a hundred different beliefs and ways of doing things. You and I have a right to join or not join those groups based on our beliefs. What you or I do not have a right to do is force one of those groups to change simple because we don't like what they believe in. This entire episode with the BSA is an example of force, intolerance and hate by the left wing liberal activists who think they are the champions of diversity and tolerance!

              • packsaddle
                packsaddle commented
                Editing a comment
                "They are the ones trying to force their morally bankrupt agenda on the rest of us!"

                Tell that to the people who made the decision to change the membership policy. BSA is a private organization and therefore free to make any changes to the membership policy they feel like. NO ONE can FORCE them to do ANYTHING. You need to understand this. BSA decided to make this change. If you don't like it, work to change it back. You're as free to do that as others were to express their opinions. What you don't seem to like is a 'level playing field'.

            • #27
              We have a right if we are part of the organization and feel it is going in the wrong direction per our beliefs, especially if the organization is suppose to be based on those beliefs.. especially if we see that the social trend is such that the organization is slowly becoming extinct due to going down the wrong path.. I would not go in to change a Jewish organization to be Christian.. But, I will work to change an organization that states it is Non-denominational, and is open to diversity that is making up rules that only work for conservative Christian, to live up to their words with deeds..

              If all denominations saw homosexuality as a sin, then you would have a leg to stand on.. If BSA stated they were purely a conservative Christian organization then you would have a leg to stand on.. I joined an organization that was non-denominational, therefore I expect it to respect all beliefs, even Pagens, Unitarians, Rock woshipers etc.. They need to do it in deeds, not words..

              The vote has been taken, those who voted were not just the executives in Irving Texas, but a representative group from all councils and all regions from all over the country.. If 3/4 of the other councils and regions wanted the vote to uphold the old rules that is what would have happened.. But 61% of the vote was for the change.. This makes it a rule change based on what people INSIDE the organization wanted.. Maybe the old rules would have been upheld at this time had it been for homosexuals adult leaders also.. Maybe local option at this time would not have passed, and you would have won had the vote been that way.. Maybe to get some change that is why the choice was this kaka-ma-mee pretzel that now means we don't get corporate sponsorship from conservative groups or liberal groups.. But, I guess 61% of the councils and regions in the BSA saw this change as better then nothing..

              So now our private organization, based on a vote by our members, not outsiders...... INSIDERS..... INSIDERS did not vote your way.. That is what is also happening with many churches these days.. The membership is pushing for change, it is ignored until they get to loud to be ignored, a vote is taken and change is happening within religious groups based upon inside opinion that it needs to change.. Churches, private organizations and private businesses have evolved this way for centuries.. Nothing stays the same.

              Now you get to decide if the organization is something you wish to continue to be a member of or not.. That is your right..

              So if you guys want to start a Heritage Boys group and call it conservative Christian only, or I had heard earlier something that was termed something like "Faith Based Boys" (Pretty gay name IMHO for an organization against gays).. Great.. But make sure it is only for CONSERVATIVE Christian, because if you just say Christian, you will be in battle again very soon when the liberal Christians join and expect the organization to respect their beliefs.. You might then be good for another 50 years, but eventually even conservatives evolve or become extinct..

              Comment


              • #28
                Originally posted by moosetracker View Post
                ...So if you guys want to start a Heritage Boys group and call it conservative Christian only, or I had heard earlier something that was termed something like "Faith Based Boys" (Pretty gay name IMHO for an organization against gays).. Great.. But make sure it is only for CONSERVATIVE Christian, because if you just say Christian, you will be in battle again very soon when the liberal Christians join and expect the organization to respect their beliefs.. You might then be good for another 50 years, but eventually even conservatives evolve or become extinct..
                I don't think we've got another 50 years ahead of us before there is definitive scientific proof that being gay is not a choice. It's maybe 10 years out at best. Take choice out of homosexuality and it's not a sin, it's how God makes people. Then what leg do the folks using religion as the justification for discrimination have to stand on?

                Comment


                • #29
                  I don't get the "liberal gay activists attacking the BSA" argument. The vote for change was made by insiders. I guess it's difficult to come to terms with the fact that some ideas about homosexuality are not shared by the majority and will end up on the trash heap of history. It's easier to think that some mysterious external force is at fault instead of flawed ideas about morality and sin..

                  By the way, for every gay den leader unjustly dismissed or a gay scout unfairly denied Eagle, 50 people, friends and family of those victims, became gay activists.

                  Comment


                  • EmberMike
                    EmberMike commented
                    Editing a comment
                    It's another red herring. There are a lot of those flying around in this discussion. People opposed to the change will blame everyone else before recognizing that BSA members decided this policy change, not the national office, and not any outsiders.

                • #30
                  Perhaps EmberMike, but remember the conservative movement is very anti-science, and/or will dismiss the 99% of scientific research that go against their argument and make a beeline for the 1% that do side with them and claim it as the only relative scientific research, while all the other research is garbage.. So science may not be anything that will persuade them..

                  Comment


                  • Twocubdad
                    Twocubdad commented
                    Editing a comment
                    With that broad a brush, moose, I bet you can paint a house in two strokes, huh? Someone applies that thinking to any politically-protected group and you'd be screaming bloody murder. But it's okay to paint conservatives as a bunch of snake-handling, mouth-breathing flat-earthers.

                  • Woapalanne
                    Woapalanne commented
                    Editing a comment
                    On the contrary. Most of us Conservatives are quite solidly pro-science. (Many trained in it, as am I.) What we are against is the psuedo-science that is often bandied in the popular 'culture".
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