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  • South Carolina Scout Executive Resigns

    A letter to friends and associates of Rob Green, SE of Palmetto Council, BSA.

  • #2
    your link doesn't work
    Last edited by Basementdweller; 06-05-2013, 06:55 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Here's the resignation note. Interesting take on National's actions.

      http://www.goupstate.com/assets/pdf/SJ2729663.PDF

      Comment


      • WAKWIB
        WAKWIB commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks Huzzar. Gremlin in the software chopped up the link I wanted, I think.

    • #4
      found it here.


      http://www.goupstate.com/assets/pdf/SJ2729663.PDF

      Comment


      • #5
        So I am going to use this thread to ask a question; I keep hearing that the survey showed that more than 60% of the membership wanted no change. Yet the council vote indicated the reverse (which is consistent with the report of the first informal survey according to Lodge489 whom I have quoted several times).

        What a I missing here?

        Comment


        • #6
          Great read about a man with the courage to stand by his convictions. Not many people would give up a salary over this issue. The information about the run up to the vote was
          very distressing. I guess our Key 3 were more involved in the steering of this vote than they would like all of us to believe. I wonder how much money was spent on the intense lobbying and indoctrination of the voters. Sure wish they would have invested that money in our council camps to fix things like latrines, pool, trails, ranges, or you name it. I also doubt that many of the attendees will step up and either verify or debunk these claims. We have also witnessed the heavy lobbying on this message board as you had self admitted non-members playing an active role in trashing any views contrary to the full acceptance of gays in scouting. The drive to support gays was as well oiled as any political contest. It was well funded and had a surprising number of non scouters heavily involved in the whole process.
          I would also like to know how many other councils called for a change of leadership in BSA. Most likely meaningless data as we have already seen the majority of voters roll over and stay in lock step with the machine.
          Just venting

          Comment


          • #7
            The %60 figure is from the response to a survey/questionnaire sent out to all members. Although that may be an accurate tally of the responses, it may not be an accurate reflection of the actual membership, it may rather be an accurate representation of members who care a lot one way or the other. It is not a statistically accurate way of gauging actual membership beliefs, for that you need to do statistically accurate sampling. Compare the results of the membership survey with the results of the more statistically precise sampling of scout parents. I would love to know if they captured data from scouting members when they were sampling parents, youth, etc.

            The survey response they cite is akin to asking MSNBC viewers to e-mail in how good a job they think the president is doing. You'll get a lot of people who think he's doing a good job, but you won't get an accurate picture of how the country as a whole views him.

            Comment


            • #8
              Well I will commend him for stay true to his beliefs, but yeah the survey he cites is just one that isn't accurate, just the only one that went his way, while he is ignoring all the surveys and data that didn't go his way.. Sort of like those who believed in the one or two positive polls for Romney, ignoring the multitude of polls for Obama.. Also other things are slanted not to give an accurate picture.. From what I understand more Councils were for the change then against, but that was for the local option there was a little more wavering when they went to this one foot in & one foot out approach... And yeah maybe the key 3 believe that homosexuality is morally wrong, but if so they probably feel similar about unmarried mothers and divorce, yet considering the amount of children of single parents in BSA today, they don't seem to feel the need to kick them out..

              But, regardless it is clear with his personal viewpoint he was not going to be happy working for the BSA, so I wish him well and hope he can get a job at a catholic organization or some other religious institution that holds his belief, because otherwise he will not be happy working in most corporations, finding he needs to work with co-workers who are sinners, in one way or another..

              Comment


              • dedkad
                dedkad commented
                Editing a comment
                We are all sinners in one way or another, regardless of what organization we belong to or work for. None of us will ever be able to live up to his standards. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but it also doesn't mean we should kick out everyone who isn't successful at living a perfect life. The churches would be empty, if that was the case.

            • #9
              Originally posted by ghjim View Post
              So I am going to use this thread to ask a question; I keep hearing that the survey showed that more than 60% of the membership wanted no change. Yet the council vote indicated the reverse (which is consistent with the report of the first informal survey according to Lodge489 whom I have quoted several times).

              What a I missing here?
              You can read a limited summary of the findings here: http://scoutingmagazine.files.wordpr...y-findings.pdf
              Basically, among all adult respondents, the majority supported the then-current policy (banning all homosexuals); however, when broken down by age, younger adult respondents preferred change. Also, the majority of youth membership preferred a change. And as Hitler said: "He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future."

              Originally posted by T2Eagle View Post
              The %60 figure is from the response to a survey/questionnaire sent out to all members. Although that may be an accurate tally of the responses, it may not be an accurate reflection of the actual membership, it may rather be an accurate representation of members who care a lot one way or the other. It is not a statistically accurate way of gauging actual membership beliefs, for that you need to do statistically accurate sampling. Compare the results of the membership survey with the results of the more statistically precise sampling of scout parents. I would love to know if they captured data from scouting members when they were sampling parents, youth, etc.

              The survey response they cite is akin to asking MSNBC viewers to e-mail in how good a job they think the president is doing. You'll get a lot of people who think he's doing a good job, but you won't get an accurate picture of how the country as a whole views him.
              BSA could have chosen as few as 1,000 random respondents and had a valid sample size. They sent the survey to over 1,000,000,000 adults, and got 200,000 responses. There's no issue with the sample size. BSA can't force anyone to respond, so there's nothing they could have done to ensure against getting responses that are representative only of "members who care a lot one way or the other." except to get a representative sample, which they did by apparently sending the survey to every email address they have. The document doesn't really say how many parents of scouts it emailed. To poll parents of boys (in general, not just parents of scouts), they engaged a research firm which we must figure knows what it's doing in choosing samples, since that's what it does.
              What is funny is that for adults, they give percentages, but for youth, they only say "a majority." So, what, 51%? 50.05%? BSA ought to get a few sociologists on the payroll.

              Comment


              • ghjim
                ghjim commented
                Editing a comment
                I am wondering if the 60% membership included only adult BSA members (scoutmasters and volunteers) whereas the council vote took into account the parents.

              • Basementdweller
                Basementdweller commented
                Editing a comment
                In the study it said

                The BSA’s Voice of the Scout Membership Standards Survey was sent to more than 1 million adult members,
                with over 200,000 respondents. The survey found:
                • Respondents support the current policy by a 61 percent to 34 percent margin.
                • Support for the current policy is higher at different program and volunteer levels in the organization:
                o 50 percent of Cub Scout parents support it; 45 percent of Cub Scout parents oppose.
                o 61 percent of Boy Scout parents support it.
                o 62 percent of unit leaders support it.
                o 64 percent of council and district volunteers support it.
                o 72 percent of chartered organizations support it.


                The BSA is planning for it's future, Bottom line

            • #10
              Originally posted by moosetracker View Post
              Well I will commend him for stay true to his beliefs, but yeah the survey he cites is just one that isn't accurate, just the only one that went his way, while he is ignoring all the surveys and data that didn't go his way
              The survey he cites is the study conducted by BSA, and the percentages he cites on page 3 of his letter are accurate and right out of the survey: http://scoutingmagazine.files.wordpr...y-findings.pdf The majority of adult respondents, councils, and regions favored no change.

              From what I understand more Councils were for the change then against, but that was for the local option there was a little more wavering when they went to this one foot in & one foot out approach...
              Your understanding is wrong: 75% of Regions recommended no change, and 50% of councils recommended no change, 38% recommended change, 11% were neutral. You will probably gain a better understanding if you read the survey results instead of ignoring them like a Romney supporter. The change in proposals (local option or youth-only) has no bearing on the issue, if you are against change, you're against change.

              And yeah maybe the key 3 believe that homosexuality is morally wrong, but if so they probably feel similar about unmarried mothers and divorce, yet considering the amount of children of single parents in BSA today, they don't seem to feel the need to kick them out..
              This analogy is flawed: If one believes that divorce is a sin, that sin is being committed by the parent, not the son. If one believes that being gay is a sin, that boy is committing the sin himself.

              Comment


              • #11
                Yes, but they will except single parent and divorced Scout leaders, they see no problem with their morals keeping them from being good role models.. So, no my analogy is not flawed.. And it's been a few months, but yes I did read the survey.. There were things the conservatives pulled from it ignoring all else, and things liberals pulled from it.. Perhaps though my council data is wrong, that I got from my Council executives.

                Comment


                • qwazse
                  qwazse commented
                  Editing a comment
                  MT, my sources told me (in advance of the vote) there were also stark regional differences (costal vs. heartland, north vs. south). Part of this is the classic "big tent" problem. The more canvas, the less your stitching will hold.

                  I think there is also a big difference between committee members and parents, and the seasoned leaders who would devote the time to preside over a council or area.

              • #12
                I heard similar polemics after the passage of the civil rights legislation in the 1960s. They also quoted the Bible. They were right. Racial segregation was needed to prevent social decay. As a result, their way of life changed catastrophically. Society was destroyed.

                Oops, my bad......that was the result of rap music. God's wrath for the violation of natural law.



                Green has made his statement. In the evening the sound of tree frogs drowns the crickets.

                Comment


                • #13
                  but that 60% that are opposed to the policy, what is the real reason for it???

                  Are they completely opposed to gays being in the BSA or is they they Want it to be completely open????


                  To me his statement sounds like a lost soul who was never in it for the boys.....


                  My guess he is running to be the new CEO for american heritage boys

                  Comment


                  • aj373ku
                    aj373ku commented
                    Editing a comment
                    If we are lucky there will be an American Heritage Boys organization we can join. We can let the BSA rot like the Girls Scouts and Canadian Boy Scouts has. Both have seen their numbers free fall since they decided to remove the morals and values from their organizations. The Girl Scouts may not have any members but at least the cross dressing transgender 7 year old has a group to join.

                  • ThomasJefferson
                    ThomasJefferson commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The Girl Scouts have almost as many members as BSA. With you guys quitting, they will have more.

                • #14
                  The Hitler quote is great....And as Hitler said: "He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future."

                  But what worries me is all of the far right wing taking their youth out of what I consider a main stream program and indoctrinating them with fear and hate.

                  Comment


                  • Scouter99
                    Scouter99 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Yeah, I just threw Hitler in to be funny. I think homosexuality is immoral, but I have no issue with gay boys being allowed to be members.
                    Last edited by Scouter99; 06-06-2013, 11:00 AM.

                  • qwazse
                    qwazse commented
                    Editing a comment
                    pack, I agree. If you pull the gay kid from my campfire, I have zero chance of telling him absolutely nothing of interest.
                    Last edited by qwazse; 06-06-2013, 10:39 AM. Reason: Revised to quiet MT's political incorrectness radar.

                  • moosetracker
                    moosetracker commented
                    Editing a comment
                    qwazse - hope that comment was in jest.. BSA is not for the Adults to introduce the boys to the birds & the bees by partnering them up sexually be it male, female, old or young.. Regardless of if you believe in psychological quackery of reparative therapy, even if you have a degree in quackery, The BSA is not the venue to do that.. Instead ask the parents to bring the boy over to your office where you can legally perform the service, while soaking the parents out of their hard earned cash, and leave the BSA out of your law suit.

                • #15
                  Rob Greene states that in his religion, homosexuality is a sin so he is quitting. But where did the BSA ever say that they condone or promote homosexuality?

                  I believe Rob Greene's religion also considers divorce as sin, sex outside of wedlock, etc.. Why has he not quit long ago for allowing divorcees or families with illegitimate children, etc.?

                  The BSA should stay out of people's bedrooms. If a scouter complains that he/she suspects another leader of being gay, the BSA response should be, "mind your own business."

                  Comment


                  • Eagledad
                    Eagledad commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Pretty funny. The reason we are here is because pro gays wanted the BSA in the bedroom, otherwise the old policy would be fine. It will be interesting to watch the BSA say "mind your own business" when a scout complains about his tent mate hitting on him.

                  • Basementdweller
                    Basementdweller commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Hitting him

                    or

                    Hitting on him

                    Big difference

                  • EmberMike
                    EmberMike commented
                    Editing a comment
                    This still is the BSA staying out of bedrooms. The BSA never cared what I was doing in my bedroom as a teenager and a scout, and this change is affirming that the same holds true for all kids, regardless of who they share their bedroom with.

                    This talk of tent mates hitting on each other is just plain ignorant. Unwanted sexual advances are not going to be allowed in Scouting no matter what. It was never tolerated before, not even between opposite sexes in Venture crews. It has not been said anywhere that the policies on these things will change, and to suggest otherwise is nothing more than a red herring. And a terrible one at that.
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