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New controversy...Let's let girls into all levels of Scouting

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  • #31
    Originally posted by desertrat77 View Post
    Now the notion that females would take over the BSA, that's an interesting concept. It just might happen. That's not a BSA issue, that is Life in This World issue, since about the late sixties. Men--ones who are good citizens in their community, are faithful to their families, work for a living--are far and few between these days. Lots of 20, 30, 40 year old "guys" in the world, who show no responsibility, and are committed solely to their own amusement and comfort. So yes, we see lots of women raising kids on their own, and running scout units and just about everything else. Sadly, I don't see a change in that in the future. But that's a whole different topic.
    A different topic indeed but no doubt at least partially created because we've spent the last 40 years devaluing boys and men and their roles in society.

    Comment


    • #32
      It wouldn't of course. It is just lazy way of fixing the problems with Girl Scouts.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by dcsimmons View Post
        Originally posted by desertrat77 View Post
        Now the notion that females would take over the BSA, that's an interesting concept. It just might happen. That's not a BSA issue, that is Life in This World issue, since about the late sixties. Men--ones who are good citizens in their community, are faithful to their families, work for a living--are far and few between these days. Lots of 20, 30, 40 year old "guys" in the world, who show no responsibility, and are committed solely to their own amusement and comfort. So yes, we see lots of women raising kids on their own, and running scout units and just about everything else. Sadly, I don't see a change in that in the future. But that's a whole different topic.
        A different topic indeed but no doubt at least partially created because we've spent the last 40 years devaluing boys and men and their roles in society.
        True...........................

        Comment


        • #34
          I think all you naysayers better look at some hard facts, the BSA being a "male" group which is not entirely true is NOT a valid argument to support your objections. Your idea of only male role models in scouts is an antiquated idea which is no longer valid in todays society, like it or not. The fact is most of you old time scouters are rapidly aging out of the program and the younger replacements coming on board are much more open to the idea of coed units. The other fact is that the BSA continues to lose members and community/corporate support at an ever increasing rate each year and if National has any idea of how to survive, which I seriously doubt they do, scouting will have to evolve and change to reflect the ideology and needs of the current and future crop of parents and society whether you agree or not otherwise scouting will wither away as an irrelevant and outdated organization. The future is here now, it is time to get on board or be left behind.

          Comment


          • AZMike
            AZMike commented
            Editing a comment
            Wait...if the the future is here now, then wouldn't today be tomorrow? And if have to get on board tomorrow to be on time, if I get left behind then it will still be tomorrow and I will have a chance to get another ticket the day after.

          • Just A Rebel
            Just A Rebel commented
            Editing a comment
            Wow...Spaceballs flashback...'Ludicrous Speed....NOW!"

        • #35
          As a father with one son and two younger daughters... There is a difference. If my wife has a meeting, I'll often have my younger girls with me. The boys still rough house, but it's different when the girls are there, even at this totally non sexual age. So in an ideal world, I'd say keep them separate.

          That said, I am my Pack Committee Chair, with no real Pack Committee to speak of, and it's a ton of work. The fact that my wife is out right now at a meeting for the new GSUSA troop we're starting up for the girls is why I'd like to see it co-ed. The fact is, GSUSA is a totally different organization with a different agenda. I'd be thrilled if BSA would dump a pile of books/uniforms on us for Girl Cubs that channels girl interests (like cubs channels boy interests) into citizenship. We could see each other once/month at the Pack meeting, run separate Dens, and show off what we've done.

          Instead, I have piles of paperwork for two organizations in my house, my wife and I both registered as leaders, and my figuring out how to handle campouts, because we can't double the number, and the GSUSA rules are atrocious.

          Nor is my garage really big enough to double all our camping gear...

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            Problem one: parents agree to be partners when they sign the application. If they do not want to contribute to the Pack, there is no Pack. Go find another Pack. Have a parent meeting, list all the activities. If parents do not sign up to organize, erase the activity. No Pinewood Derby this year! If the list gets to sparse, you cannot deliver a cub program. The Pack absolutly has the right to require parents to volunteer their time and take a position of responsibility. Go find another Pack with parents that actually care about the program.
            Problem 2: You expect the BSA to develope a program to channel girls interests into citizenship. Do you think they are qualified to do that ? If you think girls interests are the same as boys then I guess they are.
            Problem 3: Where do you expect the BSA to find the resources to develop such a program ? If the Girl Scouts want to be absorbed by the BSA, I am sure National will listen to their proposal. I sure would welcome the opportunity to sell cookies rather than crummy popcorn. Don't expect the BSA to change their rules to accommodate atrocious ones developed by GSUSA.
            Problem 4: You need to accept the fact that once you have children garages cease to be a place for motor vehicles. Unless you are willing to shell out 1-2 k for a shed.
            Problem 5: in a pack every family is responsible for their own camping gear. You cannot have a non functioning Pack Committe and be the Pack Quartermaster.

            I am going through many of the same problems with my pack. We are not the Baby Sitters of America. I demand a quality program for my son and if the other parents are not willing to help deliver that program, there is not going to be a program and they can go find a pack that is willing to accept them on those terms.

            I know I can find a pack willing to accept what I have to offer. I bet you can also.

          • Just A Rebel
            Just A Rebel commented
            Editing a comment
            I have a 20 foot sea container, and about 80% of it is filled with Scout stuff...Now, if I could only get a tax writeoff for that

          • Pack18Alex
            Pack18Alex commented
            Editing a comment
            Well, if my family needs to have tents and cooking gear for both our Girls site and our Boys site, that's not Pack gear, that's just my family. If they are all on separate weekends, well Cubs weekend is family camping, and GSUSA weekend is just the girls.

            In terms of your question:

            Problem One: we have a few dedicated families, they're slowly stepping up, my focus has been on recruiting and motivating active families. Some of the problem is a legacy problem that will take time to fix. But I committed this year and wanted my son to have a stellar program. I've been very open with my active families that I'm not sure I'm staying vs switching to a more established pack... that has a bunch of them willing to step up.

            Problem two/three: I don't know, I think that my daughters love doing the cub stuff, they were less interested in working with tools than the crafts. I don't think it would stretch BSA to bring in a few consultants on childhood development for girls, plus review the GSUSA material from 40+ years ago and put it together. I mean, they've got a decent amount of experience with the 13+ girls from Venture/Sea Scouts, so we're not dealing with cloistered men that have done nothing. I think that the investment is small, and might be able to be fundraised for. A merger would have the added benefit of being able to create Knots for the Girls Silver/Gold Awards so that Girls Scouts turned into BSA/GSUSA Scouters would get recognition like AOL/Eagle Knots are for Boy Scouts turned BSA Scouters. I think at least 60% of the program would be identical, 20% minor adaptations for girls, and 20% ripping off ideas from old GSUSA back when they were Scouting and not the liberal political movement wit

            Problem four, never had a car in my garage, don't see that changing. That said, my parents kept two cars in their garage my whole life.

            Problem five, we're a Jewish Pack, to AHG isn't an option for us for the Girls, and Jewish dietary requirements require us to have more Pack gear than most Packs need. I mean, each person in my family has two mess kits to separate meat and dairy, and a bunch of other restrictions. That also complicates joining another Pack for me.

        • #36
          I think the biggest limitation would be confusion with GSUSA. That said, I think GSUSA would close up and die pretty fast of BSA went co-ed. The fact is, having dealt with both organizations, BSA is better run, more professional, and better organized. GSUSA survives mostly because BSA doesn't offer a program at the age that GSUSA really operates in.

          However, beyond that, the goals of the organization are totally different. GSUSA is totally about girl empowerment. While they nominal accept male leaders, it isn't real, and absolutely pushed back. Looking at our local programing, other than a few hour Daisy-and-Daddy program over the summer, there really is nothing for men in the GSUSA program. While BSA-Cub Scouts is a completely family oriented programs. Siblings come to our camp outs, events, etc. On the flip side, Girl Scouts are simply not as family oriented. These things made historical sense, but at this point I think that there is demand for a BSA-quality program for girls that want family, community, and faith with some outdoors activities, and GSUSA is simply moving in the opposite direction.

          Comment


          • King Ding Dong
            King Ding Dong commented
            Editing a comment
            I am all for sewing skills for the boys. They should be in First Class or at least a MB. I bet they are required in SeaScouts or should be. A sewing kit is as standard for a sailor as a first aid kit.

          • Just A Rebel
            Just A Rebel commented
            Editing a comment
            Pack18Alex:

            The whole point of what I observed is that these girls didn't necessarily WANT a different program. They wanted to do what the boys were doing, and they were perfectly capable of doing that program. In my mind, no program changes are even necessary, because those girls WANT to do the same things the boys are doing. There is NOTHING gender-specific in the Cub program that boys and girls can't do, and looking at the Boy Scout program, nothing gender-specific there either.

            I had heard that GSA had gone more 'liberal', and that AHG had started up as a reaction to that, but in my mind, I don't understand why BSA formed that partnership. National formed a partnership with an outside religious organization with very specific religious beliefs woven into their program and with no interest in BSA membership, but is very willing to use their program, and their facilities, recruiting girls that otherwise would be BSA members (if BSA allowed girls). This sounds to me like the conservative membership drove along that agreement, but I don't see any direct benefit for BSA in general from this partnership. In fact, they will likely LOSE female membership in the Venture program as these AHG girls stay in their program, instead of moving over to Venturing. Girls starting at age 6 are actually a key demographic segment for BSA, IF they allowed girls to join. Girls that join AHG more because of the program, rather than the religious aspect, are girls that should be in BSA.

            My wife was talking to a Venture Crew advisor yesterday about girls in BSA, and she told my wife that all of the female Venturers she knew were there because of brothers in Boy Scouts, and because they wanted to do the same thing the boys were doing. Imagine the impact to the Venture program if we could GROW Venturers (or female Scouts), just like we grow Boy Scouts through the Cub Program.

            King:
            I am 100% with you on that. My mother, bless her, had the foresight to teach each of her sons how to clean, simple sewing, do laundry, cook amazing meals, and in general take care of themselves. I agree there should be a sewing requirement at some point before Star. Maybe not a MB, but at least a requirement for a couple of simple sewing tasks.

            My wife was talking to a Venture Crew advisor yesterday about girls in BSA, and she told my wife that all of the female Venturers she knew were there because of brothers in Boy Scouts, and because they wanted to do the same thing the boys were doing. Imagine the impact to the Venture program if we could GROW Venturers (or female Scouts), just like we grow Boy Scouts through the Cub Program.

          • Pack18Alex
            Pack18Alex commented
            Editing a comment
            The girls want the BSA Cub program because it's a stellar program. The GSUSA program is simply not the outdoors and activity oriented program that cubs is. If you compare the Daisy/Brownie Program to the Tiger/Wolf/Bear programs (same age range), the GSUSA program is adorable and girly, but way more talking and less doing. In the BSA program, built around young boys, we're there to teach values, we do it with action, while the GSUSA is teaching their values, but in a more classroom style program. Both programs are heavy on crafts and light on scout craft, which changes as they get older. I'd be okay with leaving the program as is, I just think you could easily make a more feminine program with minor changes that would focus on how girls learn and operate like cubs focuses on how boys learn and operate.

            I'd do a Cub program with parallel instruction for girls, and part of the reason to make the programs slightly different is that we like the fact that boys get to be boys in the pack, and different handbooks (less junglebook, more girly) would reinforce that the girl dens and boy dens need to be distinct. The identical program would mean fully coed dens, which I think would be detrimental. I think two Scout Handbooks, Scout Handbook for Boys and Scout Handbook for Girls would encourage separate Patrols, with more Patrol time and less Troop time, with them ready to go coed when they get older and more mature for it.

            I think that many girls would prefer the GSUSA program, hence their move towards a more upper middle class orientation with the modern campsites... Let's face it, going into the inner cities makes everyone feel good, but GSUSA's cookie sales (and therefore revenue) come from their white upper middle class troops, and that's their interest, small cohesive groups of girls that do activities and sell a ton of cookies.

            If BSA decided to go coed with no changes, I'd make my Pack coed. I'd just prefer if it was kept "mixed" to give boys boy time and girls girl time while giving us an outdoor and value oriented program for both boys and girls.

        • #37
          I went to quite of few DIBC (Dorchester International Brotherhood Camporee) in London, Ontario every May. Boy Scout troops from all over the northeast attend as well as members from Scouts Canada (a 100% coed organization). I was neutral on the concept for the BSA and had quite a few discussions with our Canadian friends about the plusses and minuses of having a coed Scouting program. The biggest drawback in their eyes was the need (and rightfully so) to have as a minimum at least one registered female adult go on any outing if a female scout attends. The burden was on the troop to find a volunteer - which most found difficult.

          I noticed that the younger boy didn't seem to be affected nor care about the subject either way. However, the "middle age" boys (13-15) seemed to be almost awestruck and socially awkward around the Canadian female Scouts. Was I really that clueless and tactless at that age? I sure hope not. The older boys, 16 & 17, seemed to enjoy it and pretty much act in a mature manner. I can say that for almost all of the boys above the age of 13, having female Scouts in our midst did change the dynamic. Not necessarily for better or worse, just different.

          Comment


          • #38
            Wonderful discussion, everyone...And I never really had to truly activate the asbestos underwear...phew! I've been sitting back, just watching and listening, and there are many valid points. I'm going to start back at the beginning and start responding to some of these points, so you may have to wade back through some posts you have already read, totally your choice.But I am going to sum things up here.

            Honestly, I hadn't even considered girls in Scouting until this campout where they were just as actively engaged as the boys were, doing the same activities as the boys and watching as we put on an amazing Arrow of Light and Crossover ceremony, and the same girls that were actively engaged in the activities were intensely interested in what was happening. There is an unmet need, and we have the ability to fill it for these girls. I now truly believe that the future of Scouting is coed at all levels, just like it is in so many other WOSM. I've been actively involved since my older son was a Bear, and my younger son was a Tiger, and they are Life and Star rank now. I've never seen anything in either the Cub or Boy Scout program that was gender-specific. There's nothing in the program that both boys and girls cannot do, equally as well as the other gender. Are program changes needed? Absolutely not, because the program as it exists today already would fill an unmet need in a girl's life, for those that WANT THIS PROGRAM. Its always, at all levels, 'Do Your Best'. Can a girl lead a flag ceremony? Can a girl hike and camp? Can a girl learn about knots, and fire-building, and everyday survival skills? Can a girl learn how to practice the Scout Oath and Law, every day, to the best of her ability? Can you imagine a world where more people lived the Oath and Law, and what that world would look like? I can.

            Logistics changes on a unit level? Yeah, probably, would need female and male leaders in coed units...But that wheel has already been invented, it just needs to be brought down to a lower level and applied there.

            If you look at the National, yes National Vision and Mission Statements, there is NOTHING about 'BOYS' in there.

            Mission:
            The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

            Vision:
            The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law.

            Its 'Young people' and 'youth', not 'Boys' and 'Young Men'. We are all passionate about this program, or we wouldn't be here. Why would we NOT want to give those girls that want what Scouting is about, the opportunity to find out for themselves the values of the Scout Oath and Law. So many units, especially Cub units, already allow siblings to participate in some activities. Why should we deny those siblings the opportunity to receive REAL RECOGNITION for what they accomplish alongside their brothers.

            Was talking to a coed Venture Crew advisor tonight, and do you know where many of the girl Venturers come from? They are siblings to Boy Scouts, that want to do what their brothers do, but we won't let them until they are 14. How many of these would-be Venturers just give up before they even have a chance to get started?

            And finally, Woodbadge preaches diversity, and yet, we are held back from applying the spirit of that diversity in a real and fundamental way. BSA is primed to make the move, everything is in place to allow coed units at all levels, all they, and we, need to do is take that scary step into the unknown to open up a world to these girls that they can only glimpse at, not really become part of.

            Comment


            • #39
              I guess it come down to why feel the GSUSA is failing. Is it the lack of vision in the leadership or is it a change in the desires of young girls.

              The boys grumble slightly for a few minutes when we arrive at a camp site and electronics are off in stay in the car but then they completely forget about them after a few minutes, because we are letting them be boys. From my limited research of the issue online that does not appear to be the case with girls in general.

              Maybe, just maybe if they started out as Tigers and were in a quality unit with a strong outdoor program their attitudes would be different. Do not underestimate the power of the smartphone.

              Comment


              • #40
                Reb, I hear you.
                I just know -- from camping with Jr. High co-eds outside of scouting -- that things don't always run smoothly. Sex differences get in the way, and most scouters would rather not deal with them.

                High school youth have begun to accept those differences and work with them on their own. (Some youth make terrible decisions in this process, that's why adult association is a critical method of Venturing, but generally awesome ideas result from the different perspectives.) Thus the Explorer and Venturing programs and BSA's broad mission statement.

                But harsh reality: making it work for High School kids is still controversial. There are plenty of scouters who resent Venturing. (About half of them might be people we'd respect.) Those numbers get very large when we start talking at the Jr. High level.

                Comment


                • #41
                  Reb, I hear you.
                  I just know -- from camping with Jr. High co-eds outside of scouting -- that things don't always run smoothly. Sex differences get in the way, and most scouters would rather not deal with them.

                  High school youth have begun to accept those differences and work with them on their own. (Some youth make terrible decisions in this process, that's why adult association is a critical method of Venturing, but generally awesome ideas result from the different perspectives.) Thus the Explorer and Venturing programs and BSA's broad mission statement.

                  But harsh reality: making it work for High School kids is still controversial. There are plenty of scouters who resent Venturing. (About half of them might be people we'd respect.) Those numbers get very large when we start talking at the Jr. High level.

                  Comment


                  • #42
                    I am the advancement chair, and my husband the committee chair for our BSA troop. We have 3 sons, the youngest are both Life Scouts.
                    I am also somewhat of a tomboy, and like to camp. I am not a scoutmaster because I want to be able to run the advancement stuff.

                    I think there are benefits of single sex, and I see it all the time on campouts. It isn't actually that the boys are more free to be boys (loud, active etc). It's that they are more free to be kind, affectionate etc. When girls are around, they feel they have to act very manly, and it eliminates the display of the close friendship bond . I went to an all girls high school, and it helped form me into who I am today. In the all girls enviroment, I felt more comfortable in being active, competitive etc, whereas in coed groups I became more girly.

                    I wonder why the venturing crew couldn't start at the jr. high level? Or have some jr. high crews if that nature of the adventures would be too much for younger teens of both sexes. That would offer the BSA scouting program without the donut hole, and yet preserve the single sex option for those who want it.

                    Comment


                    • #43
                      Perhaps it's just me, but it seems that while on one-hand many forum members seem fine with holding the door wide open to allow homosexual boys and adults into Scouting, going totally co-ed seems to produce a bit more hesitation. As the original poster pointed out there is a lot of things in place that would make the transition to co-ed pretty easy. The general public would likely give us a standing ovation for this instead of all the negativity we have been getting from both sides of the "gay issue." I truly believed that GIRLS would be the first of the 3-G's Scouting would tackle. It would have been the easiest and most acceptable to the most people; adding members without worrying about more running away than joining. In this situation the highly-touted "local option" that everyone thought was the wonderful solution to the admittance of gay folks would actually work without a lot of push-back. It works already with Venturing.
                      It looks like some of us are saying, "Come and be welcome all gay men and boys, but you girls, please stay home." A cheesy comedy writer for SNL or MadTV could have a field day with that...

                      Comment


                      • AZMike
                        AZMike commented
                        Editing a comment
                        What is the 3rd G? The Godless?

                      • WAKWIB
                        WAKWIB commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Yep, AZ. Pretty much. Typically the three G's were Girls, Gays, and God and been a part of Scouting's in-house hot-button discussions over the last 40+ years I have been involved. Well, the girls have been more at the top of the list for that duration. Gays and atheists have become the more heavily contested topics in the last 20 or so.

                    • #44
                      Originally posted by resqman View Post
                      Why do we need girls in BOY scouts? There is no place for a boy just to be a boy without some meddling woman or girl around to tell him he is doing it wrong. There is already Girl Scouts. If girls/women don't like what their organization offers, change Girl Scouts. Women have a lot to offer.
                      I do agree with that. Boys need a place to be boys. Like it or not, boys act differently with girls around. Sometimes they act better, others worse. I feel the same that girls should have a place to be girls. Like it or not, girls act differenly with boys around. Sometimes they act better, others wors.


                      Originally posted by resqman View Post
                      But boys and young men need some time to be boys and young men. Females generally disapprove of boys behaving like boys.
                      Depends on the female. Most Moms of ONLY boys are pretty accepting of boys acting like boys.

                      Originally posted by resqman View Post
                      Boys and young men need some time to run around, be rough and tumble, and hang out with other guys, and discuss how to get along with females without females interfearing.
                      Pretty much.

                      Originally posted by resqman View Post
                      We have female ASMs. The scouts act differently when the females ASMs are around. The female ASMs have a subtle but different way of dealing with the scouts.
                      We don't have female ASMs, but it is true that females have a different way of dealing with Scouts than do males. IMHO, boys get enough of the female way of dealing with them in schools. Scouts is a good place for them to learn how to deal with other males.

                      I do think that if people think Girl Scouts isn't as appealing to many girls as Boy Scouts, they need to reform Girl Scouts.

                      Comment


                      • #45
                        Originally posted by Pack18Alex
                        Two, I think that integrating Cub Scouts is more straightforward than Boy Scouts because of the family orientation. I think that a Tigress program would be nearly identical to the Tiger program, swap the Achievement/Elective for Go See It: Sporting with Elective: Performance and you pretty much have the Tigress program. Wolf/Bear are more complicated, I'd have the Wolfess/Bearess programs do more sewing, less whittling, and a few other things. One of the strengths of scouting is that it plays to gender stereotypes while society as a whole fights them.
                        Because everyone knows, girls can't be interested in sports? Because we don't want to encourage them to do any "manly" things like whittling? Gender stereotypes are a GOOD thing???? One of BSA's strengths??? Really?

                        Since there are plenty of girls that want to do the current cub program, why would we have to change any of it (other than adjusting a few of the pronouns in the hand book)?

                        Comment


                        • Pack18Alex
                          Pack18Alex commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Because a belief that the "manly arts" are dying, and Scouting is a way of preserving them. Our boys live in a world where "boy things" are discouraged at school, etc., which is part of the "crisis of boys," scouting counteracts that.

                          I didn't say they can't be interested in sports, my cousin was a state championship competitive team as a freshman (they got damned close), my sister-in-law was a NCAA recruited athlete. Those are great things, I have lots of sports-oriented women in my family, both playing and spectators. Just like boys into sewing, tailoring, cooking, etc., are all good things.

                          Again, it's swapping the requirements/electives, mostly. The Cub Scout program is using classical "boy" activities to teach values. A girl Cub Scout program should, therefore, use classical "girl" activities to teach values.

                          i'd create a more female oriented "collecting" achievement, things like that.

                          For example, we "expect" girls to like cultural things like performances, we "expect" boys to like sporting events. That's why the Tiger Cub REQUIREMENT is to See a Live Sporting event, while the ELECTIVE is to see a live performance. If I were doing a girl program, I'd swap that. I'm not sure why that's saying that girls can't like sports, and more than the current program is saying the boys can't like live theatre? I think in the Tiger program I'd make a swap there, and in the wolf program, swapping collecting with a more sharing about yourself. I think that most of the program through Bears transfers perfectly.

                          I wouldn't say that girls can't whittle, but I'd move it to the elective section, and move an art-oriented equivalent skill in the required section.

                          I'd move the Tools stuff for the girls program to the elective, and move some of the crafting stuff from electives to requirements. I'd also dial back the Indian Lore old-western components and instead do more modern multi-cultural things in a female oriented program.

                          Guys that can't bond over sports are seen as weird, so in our training boys to be men, we train them in guy stuff like watching a sporting event. Women are expected to be able to bond over shoes and clothes, girls that can't do that are seen as weird, so we should train them in gal stuff like that.

                          Part of Cubs is training Boy Scouts. Another part of cubs is raising men that are men. Girl cubs should be raising women that are women. Part of the obesity crisis is that we have women who haven't had anyone know how to cook in three generations. I think that a Girl cub program would introduce cooking alongside the gender neutral healthy nutrition section.

                          Assuming you have the same number of requirements, you can't just add, you have to swap.

                        • Just A Rebel
                          Just A Rebel commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Exactly, Rick. They DON'T want to do things generally associated with a female gender stereotype to the exclusion of other things. They see the boys doing 'fun' things and want to do them too. And Alex, I hardly see continuing 1930's stereotypes as productive. I have to keep coming back to the mission and vision statement. In this modern day, don't we owe it to these girls to give them the exact same skills these boys have in order to be successful? And let's not forget that the VALUES are the real goal of Scouting, not that one can start a fire, or whittle a stick...but how to make life choices and life decisions in accordance with the Scout Oath and Law.

                        • Peregrinator
                          Peregrinator commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Here's a question - to what extent do we do what the kids want to do instead of what they should do?
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