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  • #16
    I don't think it proper that just because I happen to support Scouting, someone would choose to label me as an anti-gay bigot, but that's what I'm reading here.

    "One can judge a man by the company he keeps" -- Euripides

    I would add, and by the company he excludes.


    • #17
      Nice quote Merlyn. However, none of us is making the decision to keep these people out. If I have gay and atheist friends, (My roommates are agnostics) then does that make me an agnostic? Oh wait, I'm a Catholic.


      • #18
        Darn Double Post(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)


        • #19
          I would say something like

          Many current and past scouters and scouts are working at the local level to make scouting more reach all boys interested in being a scout.

          I would mention units that have stated on their websites their policy of inclusion and where that inclusion has grown to their councils. In some cases these inclusion policies have been in place for years.

          Mention Mount Diablo-Silverado Council approved a gay Scouts Eagle application and sent it to National.

          Mention that two National Board members support a policy change and one of those two is line to be National Executive Board president in 2014.

          Major corporate supporters have withdrawn financial support as have individual supporters.

          Change is coming from the bottom up and the outside in. Slow, but it is coming.

          My $0.02, hope this helps(This message has been edited by RememberSchiff)


          • #20
            However, none of us is making the decision to keep these people out.

            You belong to an organization that keeps them out; that's the company you're keeping.


            • #21
              Yeah, here we go again. No sooner does the fire die down to a simmer on the BSA scandal caused by scoutmasters having gay sex with young boys, when it's time again to start clamoring to let gay leaders in.

              And don't give me that garbage about gay men not being the molesters. I don't care how they self-identify--the BSA's IV files aren't filled with stories of men molesting GIRL scouts, now are they?

              Is every gay man a molester? Absolutely not. Is every molester of young boys a perpetrator of having gay sex with young boys? Absolutely yes.

              We already have parents refusing to let their boys be in the program because "what kind of man wants to spend the weekend camping with little boys." Don't worry mom, he's a gay scoutmaster so it's all cool. Yup, that'll work.


              • #22
                Is every molester of young boys a perpetrator of having gay sex with young boys? Absolutely yes.

                Unless the perp is female.

                Which, I guess kinda makes Trev's point.


                • #23
                  the BSA's IV files aren't filled with stories of men molesting GIRL scouts, now are they?

                  How about female Venturers and Explorers?


                  • #24
                    and you Merlyn are hanging around with us on this forum, you too must be a anti gay bigot. Hey man, it's the company you are keeping.....


                    • #25
                      Sorry Sentinel947, you're like someone defending a whites-only club in the 1950s; I'm someone who doesn't belong to the club, but I keep criticizing people like yourself who DO belong. Debating you doesn't put me on your side.


                      • #26
                        But Merlyn... I understand that you DID belong to the club at one point. Does that mean you were an anti-gay bigot at that time?


                        • #27
                          The issue is one of perception, and its going against the BSA more and more. Trevorum even mentions that the person with that viewpoint was a lifelong conservative - so much for this being a bugaboo of the liberals. The hardest thing to counter is people's perceptions, because they form people's opinions.

                          We even have an example right in this thread where Brew states that not every gay person will molest scouts but then implys that those men who do molest scouts must be gay because they are engaging in gay sex, never mind that the vast majority of them are straight men that are married and have children of their own and never mind how often folks are told that molestation, like rape, is about power, not sex. No matter how many times the BSA says its not bigoted, or how many times we point out that child molestation is about power and not sexual orientation, there are going to be people that just will not deviate from their perception based opinion.

                          I've made no secret that I disagree with the current policy. I think the BSA makes itself look like the Westboro Baptist Church folks when they say that gay people aren't moral enough to be leaders. I think the BSA makes itself look like ignorant twits when they give any credence at all to the notion that molesters of scouts must be gay because the sex is gay sex. I think the BSA deserves every bit of bad press when they pull a mother's registration as a den leader because she's a lesbian, or deny's a boys rank because he's gay (and lies about it while doing so). (By the way, Schiff, Mount Diablo Council did not approve of the lad's Eagle and send it on to National - the District approved it and sent it to the Council, and the Council didn't approve it and it died right there, without it going to National). It's these kinds of actions that are contributing to the increasing perception that the BSA is the "last bastion of anti-gay bigotry".

                          I also disagree it's the "last bastion". Frankly, I think Congress, particularly the House, and legislatures in states around the country, are bastions of anti-gay bigotry. Don't even get me started on certain churches (and really, don't give me any guff about "biblical principles" - many of these same churches used "biblical principles" to justify slavery, and discrimination based on race, and some are still using "biblical principles" to discriminate against women).

                          The PR stuff isn't going to work. I can explain to Brew until I'm blue in the face that his perception is wrong - but he's not going to change his mind, so I have to accept that he has that opinion and try to work to make sure that people don't act on it. The BSA can get out there with all of it's "look at the great things we do" but at this point, they're preaching to the choir - it's not going to change folks minds. Saying "it's national policy, not my Scout Troop's policy" is passing the buck and doesn't really answer the implied question of "why are you still part of the BSA". If you're part of a Troop, no matter what your Troop might think, you're part of the BSA. People don't see the difference. Adults, especially, are quick to hear justification.


                          • #28
                            I was a member before the BSA started throwing out gays and atheists; I was an atheist at that time, too.


                            • #29
                              and hopefully one day soon you'll can a member again. Without violating your principles. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, and leave it at that. The names people throw at me for it, I don't really give a hoot.

                              I'm an Eagle Scout, and Scouting has made me who I am today, I will not run away from the organization because of one idiotic policy when I find the rest of the organization to be fine.


                              • #30

                                I am an eagle scout too and also a religious agnostic.
                                As such like Merlyn I am considered unfit for membership now.

                                For whatever it is worth to you I think you are doing the right thing staying in the BSA.