Combining Dens

[DenLeaderScouter 10]

Hi - I have question about dens. I am a Bear Leader. My Den has 5 scouts. We have another Bear Den with 4 scouts (lost 5 scouts over the last 2 years). We were the same Den for Tigers and split Wolf year. The other Bear Den has been trying to find a leader (the current leader is done leading and from what I hear did a poor job last year) but no one wants to lead. That is the reason I became a Wolf Leader. I wasn't happy with Tiger year. The Den Leader has asked to join my Den for a total of 9 scouts. My problem is we meet at my house. My current parents stay for the meeting that would put 9 scouts + 4 parents + 1 me + 1 ADL (my husband) + our daughter = 16 people! My house can't hold 16 people and certainly I can't fit 9 scouts at my table. I have the Den meetings at my house for my convenience. I tend to have a lot of stuff at my meetings (den doodle, flag, make slides, need outdoor space for games/songs) and it takes me over an hour to make sure I have everything and pack up my car (if I have to miss the meeting and provide the materials).

 

I want to tell them they can combine the dens but I can't be the den leader. 9 scouts is too many for me plus we have no room for growth. I put A LOT of time and prep into my meetings and yeah, they are fun but I'm in this for my son. My son needs a smaller group where he can establish friends (in Tiger year he didn't know the name of one scout).

 

 

So, I'm I unreasonable to take on the 4 additional scouts?

[mattman578 117]

DenLeaderScouter thanks for being a Den Leader your son will love it. As for combining dens it sounds like a great idea to me yes you put a lot time and energy in to making your den work. it sounds like you have two issues your house is not big enuff and you have too much stuff to carry.

 

I personally use a den box a cheep plastic box that I put all that stuff in to that way I can just throw what I need in the box and pic up the box to go were the den meeting is.

 

I would also break the kids in to smaller groups for the activities portion. I would also see if your CO has a space for you to meet with a closet that way you can just leave the stuff there

[Sidney Porter 104]

I would rather have a den of 9 than a den of 4 or 5. If you have any sort of attendance issues you end up with 2 or 3 at a den meeting which isn't much fun. You mention if you combine you have no room from growth, which I understand (I have seen people successful run dens as large as 12 but that was with active asst den leaders). But the other side of that coin is with 4 or 5 and a 2 scouts leave you are now really small. So that argument goes both ways.

 

I understand you like having the meeting at your house. Does the pack access to a facility that can house that many people. Personally I have only had a handful of meetings at someones house. Those were strategic based upon what was being covered - tools etc. From a group dynamics stand point I sort of think the den functions better when it is in a nuetral location.

 

You also mention that you son needs a samller group to establish friends. I assume he is frinds with them now after spending 2 years with 1/2 of them and 1 year (plus pack events) with the others. You say you are in this for your son which I think is true with most den leaders, you are say that if they combine you are not willing to be the den leader... which is fair. But are you willing to follow through with that threat? The other option is to refuse to combine are you willing to actually see the other den fold?

 

I notice that you are the den leader with your husband the as the asst and now the other den leader has quit. It appears that the CM has not done a great job in cultivating different leaders.If you follow through with you threat I assume tat means the asst (you husband).

[Stosh 3452]

DLS: Welcome to the forum, and as Mattman578 said, thanks for being a Den Leader.

 

You have clearly explained your situation and from where I stand, you have every right to limit yourself in the ways you defined.

 

1) Your den is working fine and has a great leader.

2) It has been suggested to add 4 additional boys. It would be disruptive to your boys, cause a mess at your home.

3) The other den has a problem, it is not your problem, don't let anyone guilt trip you into a process that is not good for you or your boys.

4) The other den needs to address it's problem and either get another leader or fold.

5) If they combine the two groups and you leave, they still have not solved their problem. Now if they can't find another leader there will be 9 boys missing out instead of just 4.

 

I would simply inform the CC/CM that you are unable to take on 4 additional boys. It's a bit harsh, but you have a responsibility to your boys, your son, your family and yourself.

 

Volunteers do have the right to say "NO" to anything they don't feel comfortable with without feeling guilty.

 

This is why we have trained CC/CM's to handle situations like this. Let them do their job and you focus on yours.

 

Stosh

 

[JasonG172 244]

Nine isnt too many !!!! I think 10 is an Ideal number for 1 person and an assistant.

 

 

[Sidney Porter 104]

Nine isnt too many !!!! I think 10 is an Ideal number for 1 person and an assistant.

 

 

9 could be too many for the location that they meet.

 

Personally I would love it if my current 5 person den was 9 scouts. Our den is the oddity in the pack. All of the other dens are between 8 and 12.

[Stosh 3452]

What is nice and what is functional doesn't add up for DenLeaderScouter. Yes I would love to have a troop of 50 scouts, boy-led, all of who will eventually Eagle and be great young men.

 

Well, on a more functional level, I'm happy if the boys boys I have grow and develop into great young men. That's not settling for second best, it's just being practical considering the circumstances.

 

Stosh

[DenLeaderScouter 10]

Thank you everyone for your feedback. There is a Committee Meeting tonight so I'm sure it will come up.

 

9 is a fine sized den but not for me. I need to hold the meetings in my house for my convenience. With my husband and I leaders we also have our younger daughter at home. Our den meets on Sunday due to sports so the school we have our Pack meetings at is unavailable.

 

My response will be what jblake47 said, "No". If the Pack still wants to combine they need to find a new leader and assistant. My husband is only involved to support me. I will follow through and stop leading. The dens will likely fold to some degree. Most the other den scouts will drop out and maybe some of mine including me. In January the Cubmaster will ask me to lead whatever scouts are still left.

 

Most of our Pack has husband and wives leaders/assistants. We have a difficult time finding leaders. Most of our leaders do the minimum and stick to the achievements only. We are the only den with a flag, den doodle, monthly slides and scout scrapbook. We earned 5 belt loops as a den last year and plan to earn 7 this year.

 

I run a highly efficient and fun den but it takes a lot of planning on my part but I enjoy it on my terms. Maybe that’s the wrong attitude but if it doesn’t work for me I can’t lead it.

[Stosh 3452]

DenLeaderScouter, I always hate it when I'm right..... I do hope that you would consider being an assistant DL if someone else would come forward to do the heavy lifting and find a place big enough for the larger group. People like you are too valuable to be shuffled off because of some political posturing. Otherwise, keep your five and enjoy your boys which would be what I would recommend and if I had to find another DL for the other 4 boys, so be it. Having one problem is not going to be solved by adding a second one and making it twice as difficult. Hopefully your CC and CM have level heads and see the situation appropriately and you get to keep doing what you're doing.

 

Stosh

[meschen 24]

While you are certainly free to set your own standards and terms for volunteering, keep in mind that the four boys on the outside looking in also deserve a qualified and dedicated leader. If you’re not going to let the other boys in to your Den, which is your right, you at least owe it to the other boys to show enough goodwill to pitch in and help recruit another leader. You almost certainly know the parents of the Bears better than the Cubmaster or Committee Chair does, and know what they are capable of. It is likely that the next best Den Leader is a parent of a boy who is in your Den. They’ve seen a Den program run successfully. If another parent in your Den is even the least bit inclined, you owe it to the boys to enthusiastically recommend to that parent that they take over the other Den, even if it means giving up one (or even more) of the boys who are now in your Den.

[Stosh 3452]

Really? DenLeaderScouter has made a commitment to lead her den. Nothing more, nothing less and it is really not proper to be dumping guilt on her expecting her to step up and do the CC and CM's job. This is why we have a pack committee.

 

It is also highly unlikely a parent of one of the boys in her patrol that will step up. They aren't going to pull their son out of a den he likes so that mom and dad can bail out another den.

 

It is my recommendation to leave that which isn't broken alone and focus on fixing that which is. It's two entirely separate situations and are to be dealt with as such.

 

Stosh

 

[DenLeaderScouter 10]

The other Den Leader agreed to continue as leader. He plans to leverage a very enthusiastic family and let other families know how they can help. He says he wants to lead and has a den calendar for the year but he is concerned about losing more scouts.

 

So far we are good. If they lose 2 more scouts we will combine. At that point I will have no choice. 2 scouts is not a den.

 

Thanks everyone for your input.

 

Menschen: My parents have a good thing going and they know it. Plus our Cubmaster is reluctant to shuffle scouts between dens.