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Can a Cubmaster reassign leaders so the leader doesn't advance with the den?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Old_OX_Eagle83 View Post
    The answer to your question is simple – YES he can
    I’m not endorsing what was done, as Pack Leadership should function as a team.

    Now let me explain:
    • The Charter org appoints a CC
    • The CC fills the committee positions
    • The committee identifies CM candidates, and makes a recommendation to the Charter Org, which can confirm or veto the appointment
    • Once the CM is appointed he identifies and recruits his assistant, and the Den Leaders, typically with the committee’s help, but the committee doesn’t have to be part of this process.
    • The Charter Org must approve all volunteers.
    Remember the committee’s role is support, and the CM’s role is program.

    Although I don’t agree what how this was done, as this act appeared to take a group of leaders who were presumably in the late stages of team development, back to square one, I also have a huge issue with parents who are just there for their child. While it’s true many packs do progress leaders with their own child, it’s equally true that may packs won't allow a parent to serve as a leader for their child’s den. When you decide to be a scouting volunteer you’re making a choice to serve, mentor, and guide all youth within the program, not facilitate your own child’s advancement. Please note office patches say “Leader” not Mom or Dad.

    I can think of many reasons, some good and some bad, why a CM might do this. Rather than yelling and getting angry a simple, logical question should have been asked “why do you want to make these changes?” Without the answer to that question this whole conversation is a waste of time.
    With volunteers, the CM should have explained his reasoning. They should not be forced to ask him. in addition, he should have talked to them about it before simply making an announcement.

    When you're a volunteer, you are serving for whatever reason you have. If you don't like something as a volunteer, you can quit whenever you want to. I know I dropped out as a volunteer for a while. I didn't like the way something was done. I came back, though.


    • #32
      Ox you and perididochas are both WRONG! The CO owns and controls everything done in the pack through the COR. If the COR feels that the cubmaster is out of line they have and only they have the authority to move or dismiss a leader NOT THE CM. That is simply spelled out in all the BSA literature. The COR in league with the IH can close up a pack at anytime, especially if the leaders are going rogue. This CM is not following protocol and should probably be let go for the good of the pack and the boys


      • #33
        BadenP, your painting in broad strokes, and didn’t fully understand my post. You do have a full appreciation of the Charter Orgs role, but not that of the committee. Before delving into this let me make an important distinction. BSA policy and training paints a picture of a fully engaged Charter Org, in reality most orgs give the unit their blessing to run things as they choose, and don’t want to be bothered. Involving the Charter Org is something to approach carefully; and unless you’re the CC or COR, should be done through the CC, or if the CC is the issue through the UC.

        For the sake of this discussion there is one actual known issue, a lack of communication. “Why the changes?” No party involved handled this well, they all need to sit down and talk. I would contact your UC, so an outside party can facilitate a discussion.

        As far as Unit Function, here’s the skinny on what has to happen one more time (Note: what typically happens differs):
        1. BSA and Charter Org Head decide to partner to offer a program
        2. The Charter Org appoints a COR
        3. The COR Appoints a CC (BSA approves the appointment)
        4. The CC forwards makes recommendations of candidates to fill committee positions to the COR (Charter Org approves or rejects) (BSA approves or rejects)
        5. CC recommends CM candidate to COR (Charter Org approves or rejects) (BSA approves or rejects)
        6. CM recruits his DL’s, ADL’s, and ACM’s, submits candidates to CC for approval (CC not Committee), if CC approves à (Charter Org approves or rejects) (BSA approves or rejects)
        Ok, now your unit is built

        How things operate:
        1. COR answers to Charter Org Head
        2. CC answers to COR
        3. Committee officers answer to CC
        4. CM answers to COR (not CC or Committee)
        5. ACM and DL’s answer to CM
        6. ADL’s answer to DL’s
        7. UC is liaison between BSA and Charter Org Head/COR , as well as mentor/coach to CM and CC
        *All units at every level have a “Key Three”. For A pack the key three is the COR, CC, and CM, who work as a team to steer the program.
        *The Charter Org owns the franchise
        *BSA provides the franchise
        *The Committee is responsible for operations, and provides program support
        *The CM is responsible for program and his volunteer leaders
        *The DL’s are responsible for the actual scouts

        If you’re having discussions about any of this something is broke, as everyone should be one big team!

        What gets me about this entire thread is the selfish focus many have, thinking only about their own scout. Look at the big picture, in scouts you're not a parent, your a leader. Leaders have an obligation to all the scouts, and fellow leaders.

        Something is very broke here, I have no idea what this CM is thinking, but whatever he's attempting he's going about it a bad way.

        For god's sake sit down and talk, find out what's up. Your new CM may have the best intentions, and the worst possible plan; help him.

        There's another important distinction to make here, in our scenario the CM is changing assignments, not appointing or removing volunteer leaders ... no matter how you look at things a CM is specifically given this authority.

        Last edited by Old_OX_Eagle83; 06-18-2014, 09:59 AM.


        • #34
          Ox I understand exactly where you are coming from however I was relaying you what should be happening which your pack is not doing. This CM has NO authority to be doing what he is doing and it is the COR and the COR alone who has the authority to put him in line. Otherwise all you get is a bunch of infighting with no results and it is the boys who wind up the losers.


          • #35
            Technically speaking, there are Tiger Leaders, Den Leaders (Wolf/Bear), and Webelos Leaders. All three positions have separate codes. In theory, if your Tiger leader moved onto Wolf, or Bear Leader onto Webelos, one should submit a new application. In practice, they tend to just move up in June, and update the charter in December, but in theory, fresh applications to CC/COR should occur.

            CC/Committee are responsible for filling all leadership roles, but once named as Den Leaders, they are the responsibility of the Cubmaster to mentor/oversee.

            In a Pack with 2 Dens/level, for 10 Dens, a Cubmaster can re-assign any of the 4 Wolf/Bear Leaders to any of the other 4 Dens with no need for approval. The Webelos 1/2 Leaders can be swapped. Technically Tigers are in a Tiger Group (I believe this changes next year), which is why we have Tiger Leaders, but no Tiger Den Leaders OR Assistant Tiger Den Leaders -- BSA already updated the Leader Awards to reflect Tiger being an normal Den, but there is no way to actually appoint an Assistant Tiger Den Leader in BSA's system.

            So the Cubmaster assigning someone that is a registered Bear Leader to continue as a Bear Leader in the summer/fall, instead of moving up to Webelos Leader in the fall, is 100% permitted. In fact, moving that Bear Leader to Webelos Leader requires consent of CC/COR, but leaving them as Bear Leader requires no intervention.

            OTOH, if your Pack is actually functioning this way, you're in trouble. Though I did have to explain to a parent that didn't like something in the program that I didn't really care that he felt it should be more than my decision and should be up to the Pack Committee, Scouting doesn't work that way. The Cubmaster puts on the program, I organize the program, and we both run things in coordination with the Charter Org. Suggestions are always welcome, but there is no "appeals process" to our decisions unless you want to go to the COR to get us removed.


            • #36
              I think we're missing an important component in this discussion - the pack committee itself. From the BSA website:

              Every pack is under the supervision of a pack committee... (rest omitted) Responsibilities: Regardless of the size of the pack committee, these responsibilities must be performed:
              • Make recommendations regarding pack leadership to the chartered organization for final approval of pack leadership.
              • Recruit the Cubmaster and one or more assistant Cubmasters, with the chartered organization’s approval.
              • Coordinate the pack’s program and the chartered organization’s program through the chartered organization representative.
              • Help with pack charter renewal.
              • Help stimulate the interest of adult family members through proper programming.
              • Supervise finances and equipment.
              • Vigorously assist the Cubmaster.
              • Ensure that all Cub Scouts receive a year-round, quality program.
              • Complete pack committee Fast Start training and Basic Leader Training for the position.
              • Conduct, with the help of the Cubmaster, periodic training for parents and guardians.
              • Cooperate with other Scouting units.
              I bolded the ones that seem relevant here. In my pack (at different times I've been CM & CC), the pack comimttee has final say on any decision. Could we get into a turf war? I suppose, but we don't because at the end of the day, both the CC & the CM defer to final decisions of the committee.

              Also, the BSA pack org chart shows the Cubmaster clearly reporting to the commitee.

              I would expect that in a situation like this, the issue should be raised at a pack committee meeting. If the committee is fine with it, then case closed. If committee disagrees, but the CM digs in, hopefully the COR is self aware enough that he supports the decision of the committee. This keeps any one person from running amuk and wreaking havoc.

              So, can the CM reassign den leaders? I suppose he can, but so what? The committee can just say - this isn't who we want to be, switch it back. Or the committee can say, great idea - next topic.