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Can a Cubmaster reassign leaders so the leader doesn't advance with the den?

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  • #16
    As a volunteer, if I were FORCED into anything in that way, I would graciously tell them that I don't want to do that, and that I quit. Then, I would be the parent that stays at the Den meetings and helps out. When I was in Cub Scouts, I did it for my sons, and I felt being a Den leader was enough of a sacrifice to their quality time, and I can't imagine being a Den Leader for another bunch of Cubs. SOunds like the CM's further pack was one of those "get it all done before Blue and Gold" packs, and his boys were bored due to that. They won't be as bored next year, unless he does all those achievements at home over the summer.

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    • #17
      Post #16 was my parental post. Now, in terms of effectiveness as a Den Leader, I think it would actually be better to be the Den leader for the same den for several years. My sons are one scout year apart. I had the opportunity to be the WDL for both of their second years as Webelos. I think I did a better job the second go-round.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sidney Porter View Post
        What was last year's wolf den leaders opinion? I assume that leader planned on moving up to the bear den.
        Last years Wolf DL doesn't have a son in the pack as his crossed over two years ago. He's been helping out as needed, and was slated to stay the wolf DL per the new CM. My ex-wife took the Tiger's over after March of this yea and will be the Tiger again next year with our youngest son. And yes, we've been keeping the drama and problems of the ex-wife / girlfriend situation out of the Pack and Scouting activities.... that is one of the reasons my GF and I are very aware of our

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ScoutNut View Post
          When a CC has to recruit a CM from outside of the Pack that raises a lot of red flags to me about that Pack.
          Then there is the fact that your Pack is losing their (current) Wolf leader, filling that position with a leader from a different den, and "recruiting" yet more adults from outside the Pack to fill leader positions.
          Other than you (and your GF), are there no Pack parents willing/able to step up?
          Again, why did your CC seek out this person, in particular, to recruit? What were his qualities (other than being a warm, available, body) that brought him to your CC's notice? Are CC and CM buddies?
          I would also be interested in what the CM's issues were with his old Pack. Especially considering the drama he is stirring up in his new one.
          It does not seem that he plays (or works) well with others.
          The Tiger Leader has been iffy all year, and his was the only Tiger in the Den. It was a bad recruiting year for sure. The Wolf Leader doesn't have a son in the pack as his previous crossed over and has stayed to help out because he enjoyes the program. Getting parents to be active and help out has been the biggest bane of the pack, and one of the reasons finding leaders, committee members, and a new CM was
          such a difficult task.

          I'm not sure why the new CM was chosen exactly. I will find more out when I speak with the CC.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by uflgator99 View Post

            Last years Wolf DL doesn't have a son in the pack as his crossed over two years ago. He's been helping out as needed, and was slated to stay the wolf DL per the new CM. My ex-wife took the Tiger's over after March of this yea and will be the Tiger again next year with our youngest son. And yes, we've been keeping the drama and problems of the ex-wife / girlfriend situation out of the Pack and Scouting activities.... that is one of the reasons my GF and I are very aware of our
            It almost appears that the CM is attempting to shift the program to have the same leader stay with the den. You ex-wife is staying with the Tigers, the wolf is staying with the wolf and he expected you GF to stay with the Bears. In his master plan you were the only one advancing but from Web 1 to Web 2.

            This method could work but it is not the norm with cub scouts and he did not sell the approach. I question if it is sustainable with parents as den leaders. You almost need to get people that no longer have cub scout age scouts but still want to be involved. It seems like most of people that do not have kids end up volunteering at the boy scout level.

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            • #21
              Cubscouts is all about hand holding, being PC, and parent orientated. Finding volunteers who do not have kids in the program is hard. In boy scouts the boys are more independent. The adult act more as drivers and hang out together.

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              • #22
                This is my opnion and totally mine.

                I rather parents NOT work in the same Den as their child, just my opinion.

                Vested interest? My son is not in my Den does that mean I dont have a "vested" interest? When he moves up to Boy Scouts and I remain in Cubs what is my vested interest? The boys are MY VESTED interest.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Rick_in_CA View Post
                  I have run into scouters that don't like female webelos den leaders
                  I am one and got one. Sorry, I like crafts just as much as the next fellow but more the merrier is NOT the case for Webelos..ugh

                  This is why I feel my Troop is suffering

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                  • #24
                    The boys have had the same DL Tiger-Bear. Kids make bonds to their leaders and I like the fact that Cub Scouts (unlike school or other activities) they get to keep the same adult role models year after year.

                    There is DEFINITELY something else going on here.

                    I would be afraid to put someone in charge of my program when they were unhappy with their other program. Usually its a bit of a two way street when people are unhappy. And now this guy seems to be going buckwild.

                    BUT at the end of the day, keep in mind, the program is ABOUT THE KIDS. And what is best for your kids and all the rest of the kids.

                    I don't believe your GF staying with the Bears is a super great idea unless her heart is behind it.

                    My suggestion would to be, do as others have said, and just be a parent if she is no longer needed as a leader. To be a great leader you need to know how to be a follower first... I would much rather find someone worthy of following and helping that way than have to lead it myself. You can do so much more when you aren't bogged down with everything at the top.


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                    • #25
                      I can understand why your GF is upset. The new CM did not handle the situation well at all. I would resign as a leader and sit back and watch the 'show' as the new leaders take over. Or find a new unit, but only if it fits the needs of my scout.

                      Recruiting den leaders from the parents of a den is an obvious choice when looking for leaders. Those parents are the adults already in the room, so to speak. It especially makes sense when dens meet on different nights. I personally would not be willing to lead a den other than my son's den if it meant that I would be attending meetings twice a week, once for my son's den and once for my own. My pack does switch den leaders around but we all meet at the same time and place each week.

                      I think the idea that women cannot be good Webelos leaders is asinine. I have worked with great Webelos leaders who are male and great leaders who are female. I've also worked with male and female leaders who are well-intentioned but not good leaders. It is best to look at what each PERSON brings to the table as a leader if your unit is lucky to have more than one candidate for each leadership position.

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                      • #26
                        I think that the problems with female Webelos Leaders isn't that they are female, it's that the baggage that usually comes with them... i.e. they aren't picked for the right reasons. I know some OUTSTANDING female Webelos Leaders and nobody begrudges them for their gender. However, a lot of moms recruited as Den Leader do fine in the Craft oriented Tiger-Wolf years, but struggle as Bears need more physical involvement and Webelos with the pressure for more Scout Craft. The bigger issue is that as the boys need to get outside their comfort zone and stretch, mom is more likely to coddle and protect. Now, there are plenty that break the stereotype, so no need to gender discriminate, but a new Cubmaster that doesn't know the leaders might fall back on gender stereotypes which is bad. You need to nuture the Tigers/Wolves through the program, encourage them to stretch as Bears, but you really need to back off and let the boys figure out more as Webelos, which moms struggle with more than dads. I'd way rather have a female leader that is trained, understands the program, etc., than a male leader that doesn't. If both are trained and understand the program, gender is irrelevant. HOWEVER, if I'm dealing with parents that don't get the program, I'll take an uninformed male leader over an uninformed female leader, though neither choice is ideal. If the female leader is in uniform and filling the leadership role, it's great. However, if the leader (of either gender) is going to show up in Class B, be uncomfortable with regimentation and other Scout-like things, then the boys react poorly to female leaders. So a good leader is a good leader regardless of gender. For a crappy leader, it's going to be crappy regardless, but crappy female leaders are worse.

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                        • #27
                          Since when is "regimentation" Scout-like?

                          This is Boy Scouts - not the military.

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                          • #28
                            A Cubmaster can do nothing about pack leaders or their assignments without first getting the approval of the COR and Pack Committee, and he better have a good reason to begin with otherwise he should get the boot.

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                            • #29

                              The answer to your question is simple – YES he can
                              I’m not endorsing what was done, as Pack Leadership should function as a team.

                              Now let me explain:
                              • The Charter org appoints a CC
                              • The CC fills the committee positions
                              • The committee identifies CM candidates, and makes a recommendation to the Charter Org, which can confirm or veto the appointment
                              • Once the CM is appointed he identifies and recruits his assistant, and the Den Leaders, typically with the committee’s help, but the committee doesn’t have to be part of this process.
                              • The Charter Org must approve all volunteers.
                              Remember the committee’s role is support, and the CM’s role is program.

                              Although I don’t agree what how this was done, as this act appeared to take a group of leaders who were presumably in the late stages of team development, back to square one, I also have a huge issue with parents who are just there for their child. While it’s true many packs do progress leaders with their own child, it’s equally true that may packs won't allow a parent to serve as a leader for their child’s den. When you decide to be a scouting volunteer you’re making a choice to serve, mentor, and guide all youth within the program, not facilitate your own child’s advancement. Please note office patches say “Leader” not Mom or Dad.

                              I can think of many reasons, some good and some bad, why a CM might do this. Rather than yelling and getting angry a simple, logical question should have been asked “why do you want to make these changes?” Without the answer to that question this whole conversation is a waste of time.
                              Last edited by Old_OX_Eagle83; 06-17-2014, 11:11 AM.

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                              • #30
                                "When you decide to be a scouting volunteer you’re making a choice to serve, mentor, and guide all youth within the program"

                                This is a very important point, and I thank you for adding it to the discussion.

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