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Can a Cubmaster reassign leaders so the leader doesn't advance with the den?

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  • Can a Cubmaster reassign leaders so the leader doesn't advance with the den?

    Let me apologize first for having to go through such a large amount of background…

    Our pack recently had a new Cubmaster recruited from another pack when our previous CM, who was also the pack’s Webelos-2 Den Leader, stepped down following his Webelos’ Scouts crossing over into Boy Scouts. The new Cubmaster is very active with, and we’re pretty sure he’s a committee member for our District Committee. It should be noted that when he transferred into our pack, his two sons (a Bear and Tiger) already had their rank achievement badges, and several arrow points. As a result, they were repeating much of the content in the books as our pack’s dens caught up with them.

    I am the Webelos-1 leader (been the den leader since my son’s tiger year), and my girlfriend is the Bear leader (been the den leader since her son’s tiger year). We both have boys in our dens, and our participation with our boys in scouting is the reason we volunteered for the responsibility of being den leaders. We were already making plans for our joint Webelos den activities since the pack committee and leaders had just recently completed planning our year's calendar of event.

    Then, this Thursday we went to the June Leader's meeting and the new Cubmaster started the meeting by announcing that my girlfriend would not be moving up to the Webelos-1 Leader position, but instead would repeat the Bear program for a second year while her son moves into Webelos. There was no forewarning, no asking or requesting, no anything... to prepare anyone in the leader meeting for that bombshell.

    The announcement went basically like this:

    New CM-“Laurie will be the Tiger Leader. Warren will be the Wolf Leader. Amber will be the Bear Leader…”
    GF- “Uh, no I’m not…I’m moving up with my son”
    New CM-“Yes you are”
    GF-“No I’m not.”
    New CM-“YES… YOU ARE!”
    GF-“Then you won’t have me as a Leader”
    New CM-“That’s fine… we’ll get someone else.”

    He then proceeded to tell us he was placing another District Committee member in the Webelos-1 Den Leader position that he is taking from my girlfriend. We later found out that this person who he would make the new Web-1 leader doesn’t even have any kids currently in the program, and as a result has no vested interest in the quality of the program.

    At that point things blew up, with lots of yelling and whatnot. During the ensuing argument, one of the points he made was that his son was bored with the Cub Scouting. However, this was never mentioned to my GF during the last couple months when the CM’s son was bored.

    The Committee Chair was present during this debacle, and my GF and I spoke with him after we left the meeting. He wants us to speak with the new CM again after things have cooled down, but at the year end picnic on the following Saturday, the new CM didn’t speak to my GF at all, and only spoke to me when I asked him a question directly.

    Where does a CM’s authority end? I was under the impression that the Pack Committee and Committee Chairperson make all recommendations for signing den leader applications for their den leader positions and the Chartered Organization Rep makes it official when he signs off on the Adult Leader Application. Can a CM refuse to let a Den Leader progress through the ranks with their child?

    This is really hurting my GF because she’s losing something she valued very much. Both she and I have invested a large amount of our time, effort, and energy into this pack over our last 3 and 4 years (respectively). We would like to resolve this without it coming to our leaving the pack we and our sons have come to love.

    Ideas or comments?
    Last edited by uflgator99; 06-08-2014, 03:10 PM. Reason: Corrected terminology

  • #2
    I haven't experienced this directly, but I have heard of situations where a leader is willing to work with a specific rank level rather than work directly with their son's den. I suspect there is something more going on behind the scenes here. Did the CC or CM offer any explanation for this?

    Comment


    • #3
      I want to speak with the CC again, but for now all we've been told is it was because of the lack of advancements that the Bear den completed since the Blue & Gold Banquet atthe end of Feb. That, in and of itself, seems like a ridiculous reason because if he's not happy with the way she ran her den this year, surely he won't be happy with next year's results when she has no child in her program and is being forced to do it.... I agree with your assessment and also suspect something shady going on in the background...

      In the 4 years of time I've been in Scouting, all of the den leaders had a son in their den... So while I can see how someone may be willing to work with ranks other than their son's, it doesn't seem to be the norm.

      Comment


      • #4
        Just because it is not the "norm", does not make it wrong. I was Tiger Den Leader for 17+ years. My son was only in the Pack for 2 of those years (Webelos).

        It is not the Cubmasters job to "hire" or "fire" Pack leaders. That responsibility belongs to the Committee Chair and the Charter Organization Representative - only. The Cubmaster can recommend, but the responsibility for final approval is on the CC, and COR. It is their signatures on the volunteer applications.

        Bottom line - this CM can NOT "reshuffle", your GF, fire your GF, or hire his buddy - without CC, and COR approval.

        It seems that he has that approval.

        I would suggest your GF (not you) have an honest talk with the CC, and COR - together. There is more going on here then it seems.

        Off the top of my head, it might have something to do with you and GF planning on going on joint Webelos overnighters together. Or it might not. GF needs to have that discussion.

        Off topic, a bit - why did your Pack feel the need to recruit a Cubmaster from another Pack? What made your Pack want him specifically? Is your Pack that small that you could not recruit a CM from your own families?

        What is your Charter Organization? Is it a religious/community organization, or are you self-chartered (Parents of Pack 1234)?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by ScoutNut View Post
          Just because it is not the "norm", does not make it wrong. I was Tiger Den Leader for 17+ years. My son was only in the Pack for 2 of those years (Webelos).
          I'm not saying its wrong to have it in place, but I am saying its wrong IMO to force someone away from their son when they' want to be with him.

          It is not the Cubmasters job to "hire" or "fire" Pack leaders. That responsibility belongs to the Committee Chair and the Charter Organization Representative - only. The Cubmaster can recommend, but the responsibility for final approval is on the CC, and COR. It is their signatures on the volunteer applications.

          Bottom line - this CM can NOT "reshuffle", your GF, fire your GF, or hire his buddy - without CC, and COR approval.

          It seems that he has that approval.

          I would suggest your GF (not you) have an honest talk with the CC, and COR - together. There is more going on here then it seems.

          I'm waiting for the CC to call me so we can talk more. When she and I understand what legs she has beneath her, then she will be taking up with the CC or COR as needed. I will only enter into those discussions as needed or requested by her or the CC/COR. She's got no problem talking about it with someone willing to talk. I'm just doing the research because I have a little more experience with this stuff.


          Off the top of my head, it might have something to do with you and GF planning on going on joint Webelos overnighters together. Or it might not. GF needs to have that discussion.
          We've been on joint overnighters before without incident. We observe the rules of separate tents/sleeping arrangements, and keep public affection toned down greatly when at all Scouting events. We're both quite conscientious of issues that could raise, for reasons other than just the ones in this problem.


          Off topic, a bit - why did your Pack feel the need to recruit a Cubmaster from another Pack? What made your Pack want him specifically? Is your Pack that small that you could not recruit a CM from your own families?

          What is your Charter Organization? Is it a religious/community organization, or are you self-chartered (Parents of Pack 1234)?
          I was going to step up as CM after my oldest crossed over, but that's not happening until next Spring. the CC found a person who was unhappy with the pack he and his children were involved in and recruited him to come to our pack as CM after a couple test excursions together. We didn't steal another Packs CM. I just couldn't devote the time to both that and being Web-2 DL and getting he boys through the Arrow of Light.


          And our Charter Org is a religious organization that is pretty hands-off.

          Comment


          • #6
            Just say NO to whoever the CM, CC, IH, ..What happens when your sons crossover to Boy Scouts, will you be held back as a DL? Some stop-loss program?

            State your conditions for volunteering, i.e., that you want to help with your son's den either as a DL, ADL, or just a scout parent. You are not being selfish so don't let them lay any guilt trip on you.

            CM sound like a control-freak among other things. Pack should plan his retirement party yesterday.

            My $0.02.

            Comment


            • #7
              It's always discouraging to hear stories of Adults working so hard to ruin what should be a great experience for everyone. But I've never been in any youth organization where there weren't parents causing problems for no reason.

              I hope this will work out for the good of the Scouts and that the new CM either realizes that's who he's supposed to be serving, or finds some other youth organization to ruin.

              One piece of advice - "I am saying its wrong IMO to force someone away from their son when they' want to be with him." This raised a red flag for me in regard to your son's future in Boy Scouts. Opportunities to hang out with or work with your son are (or should be) dramatically less in Boy Scouts than in Cub Scouts. The best policy as a new Boy Scout parent is to be "hands off" and let the other Scouts work with him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Get the CC's (and if possible, COR's) perspective on all of this. If he agrees with the CM, your GF needs to decide how she really wants to serve the pack. Bottom line: we expect scouters to uphold the 5th point of the scout law. That includes use of "please" and not blindsiding fellow scouters.
                Last edited by qwazse; 06-09-2014, 09:05 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by scoutergipper View Post
                  One piece of advice - "I am saying its wrong IMO to force someone away from their son when they' want to be with him." This raised a red flag for me in regard to your son's future in Boy Scouts. Opportunities to hang out with or work with your son are (or should be) dramatically less in Boy Scouts than in Cub Scouts. The best policy as a new Boy Scout parent is to be "hands off" and let the other Scouts work with him.

                  Boys Scouts are the next level, and while I plan on volunteering as a merit badge counselor or something similar, I am not looking to take as active a role in my son's scouting experience at that point. We've been told throughout our time in Cub Scouts that it is a family experience, and we've enjoyed it as such. It seems to me that Boy Scouts is more about the boys and their growth, and I am good with stepping back to help that happen.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What was last year's wolf den leaders opinion? I assume that leader planned on moving up to the bear den.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      When a CC has to recruit a CM from outside of the Pack that raises a lot of red flags to me about that Pack.

                      Then there is the fact that your Pack is losing their (current) Wolf leader, filling that position with a leader from a different den, and "recruiting" yet more adults from outside the Pack to fill leader positions.

                      Other than you (and your GF), are there no Pack parents willing/able to step up?

                      Again, why did your CC seek out this person, in particular, to recruit? What were his qualities (other than being a warm, available, body) that brought him to your CC's notice? Are CC and CM buddies?

                      I would also be interested in what the CM's issues were with his old Pack. Especially considering the drama he is stirring up in his new one.

                      It does not seem that he plays (or works) well with others.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        That would be very disappointing. I can't imagine my wife not being allowed to continue with "her" boys.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have run into scouters that don't like female webelos den leaders (as one said: "Ideally, the CM, ACM and webelos den leaders should be male, and the other den leaders should be female"). Maybe that is what is going on? Your girlfriend really needs to talk to the CC and COH and find out what is really going on. How big is your pack?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            As a den leader who took boys from tigers through bears I would find out what was going on with the "bull in the china shop" new guy and if he had the backing from others to do this. Then I would privately decide if I wanted to continue to volunteer in the program, wanted to continue to have my kid in the program, or wanted to take my den, which I invested three years in, to another program in total. A forth option is to form a small pack for my den.

                            Personally I would not be interested in volunteering in an organization with such an autocratic guy.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Den leaders usually are a parent of a cub in a den and move up with the den. I would not want to lead a den while arranging for my son to be at some other den leaders meeting. What a pain in the butt. Tell the new CM to back off or he will lose two den leaders.

                              Comment

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